For the rest of the hour, we will be talking about politics specifically the Republican endorsement for US Senate State Republicans hold their convention next week in St. Paul three candidates are in the running for the Senate endorsement Congressman Rod grams. Former State Commerce Commission Herbert mackesy and state senator jentleson, all three join us today and thanks very much for being here. We also have to mention that lieutenant governor jonell dears dead. He is running for the Senate on the Republican side, but she's not actively seeking the endorsements. So she's not on the program today. We will certainly hear more from her as we approach the September primary eye. First of all, I want to ask you a lot. There's been a little confusion so far about who will abide by the endorsement who won't maybe I can start with you Burt mackesy. Will you abide by the endorsement? That's a granted next week? Yes. I will abide by the endorsement Mike when I announced in July. I was asked by one of the reporters who IKind of support and I set out and support the endorsed candidates and and that's my position. And how about you that has been my decision from the very beginning and it has been my practice in the past as well that if I am the endorsed candidate I will go forward carrying the banner. If I am not I will be supporting the endorsed candidate Rod grams. Are you join us from Washington via satellite. What about you? Will you and abide by the endorsement to if you don't win it next week or first like I got to say that the volume is real low here. I can just barely hear you. But I hear the question and I heard their answers and I agree with the same thing. I have always said that I will abide by the endorsement process and I stand by that decision. All right, if General Centerburg mackesy winds, so you will not be running in September. I will support the endorsed candidate Republican race for Senate hasn't gotten a whole lot of attention so far. I think a lot of the depressed attention certainly has been focused on the governor's race on the river.Look inside Allen Quist versus Arne Carlson, but last week Rod grams came down to the the state capitol pressroom and said that General synenberg mackesy have been ganging up on him and making a lot of personal attacks and ride grams. Why don't you tell us exactly what you were talking about last week because I think we might as well get this out on the table and let the other two candidates hear what your complaint was. Okay, and basically might this is been a campaign that has been devoid of issues. I've been out there trying to run on the on the issues that I think are very important in the delegates need to know about and the voters in Minnesota need to know in order to make a decision in the fall of who they want is the next u.s. Senator represent them here in Washington, but all I've heard out of the other two candidates is nothing but personal attacks and smears. I'd like to know what they're running on and why they decided to run from their issues rather than running on something that they think are important for Minnesota voters to hear about this is been confined, of course a lot within the delegate Pro.Just because of the the endorsement coming up but again, they have decided not to campaign on the issues. They have never attacked me on a lot of my votes are my positions because I think they agree that the job done in Washington has been a good job and I've decided instead to try at Acme on other levels and rather their personal attacks are like I say a basic smear campaign and I think it's time that they get onto the issues and let's talk about water important important to minnesotans. What's important not only this year but what's going to be important over the next five years. This is a very important race and we have to make sure that the voters are very informed. And again, I just got out the basic question of what is Bert and Jen really running from was an awesome. That's pretty serious charge. Have you been running a smear campaign against Iraq grams? Absolutely not. I believe that all of us are very similar on virtually all of the issues. And the reality is that electability becomes the key issue in that kind of a consideration not been avoiding issues.Obviously, I've been a 12 year veteran of the state senate and been carrying the water on a number of issues and even as a man already member have been quite effective not particularly in the education Arena. And so I've clearly not been avoiding the avoiding the issues. Have you been running a smear campaign? What what what do you have against Rod grams? Well Mike I've spent eighteen years in my own small business and I'm very conversant with those issues and I I'm the it was in this campaign before Rodger Jen and I've been talking about those kinds of issues since last July I put out the mission papers on health and on welfare, and I've been talking about crime issues in education issues in and I'm not quite sure what Rod is talking about if he's talking about a smear campaign then maybe he should mention what he's talking about specifically. Well, I think it's very obvious bird. If you want to call any of the delegates are Jen and find out what kind of campaign literature you put on the desk. So the chairs of the conventions and what you've been putting in the mail the mail isI've been saying well I stand for this or I stand for this or the fact that Jen supports will be easy or that other things that you have done, but it's been basically what is Rod grams done. This is what he's done with his business Rod grams forgot to pay 1 taxville Road grams can't stand up to the scrutiny of a Star Tribune. These are the type of issues that you have counts concentrated on. I don't see those is being the white papers that really candidates should be looking at well, right as I said, we put out that white papers on Health and Welfare, and I'd be happy to send you copies of those if you don't have them as I said, I think I have considerable and Bert. I think I have considerable expertise on non small business issues in the need for for job creation in it in a strong spokesperson for small and medium-sized businesses in this country and I held it over the state talking about those issues and I've been out talking to small business people and they don't seem to agree with you birth because they're not supporting you heard or seen you this campaign. I've got a list as long as my arm is small business groups around the country inn in Minnesota that have decided. I'm the bestI need in this race such as these small business the nfib the Chamber of Commerce business and industry many many others that say Rod grams is the best candidate to carry our message in Washington. So when I talk about small business and experience, I look at the voting record that we've taken I've been in Congress for a year-and-a-half and they support the issues. I stand for you were in the legislature you served us Commerce secretary under the current Administration and they do apparently don't agree with what you did bird. So I questioned when you bring up the issue of small business wear small businesses stand and who they support in this campaign. Well, right. I just like to remind you that I have been in small business for 18 years old and I have dealt for 18 years Hands-On with starting a business from scratch MTG a payroll collecting receivables been doing all those kinds of things and that's what the business Community is looking at today and they look at my vote and they support Rod grams in this campaign.Say that I'm very proud of my record six years in the legislature in two and a half years is Commerce commissioner. Okay, before we go too much farther here, I think we should bring our listeners into the debate Rod grams Bert mackesy and Jen Olson. The three are Republican three Republican seeking the endorsement for US Senate this year and let's go to our first caller Hai Jaan midday stance on abortion. Okay, that's a fairly simple question. What are each candidate stands on abortion? My position is pro-life. My position is pro-life. All right. I think that answers that one. Maybe we should to take another call Hai Jaan midday, and we have to rely on her Federal Senators judgment as and discretion have I recently been informed that your staff. I has abused security procedures at the White House and that one woman on your staff Eventide.Add yourself as your wife in order to get special passes to a White House Event. I have also heard that you were awarded this woman by giving her a promotion and a raise to $72,000 per year after her effort to be your wife. Why should we trust your judgment after his stuff like that? And it sounds like campaign charges and not the the voice of the are concerned you are but let me tell you those charges are all false. None of that happened and there lies in these are desperate acts in Desperate calls by people from campaigns that are trying to again just it just typifies Mike what I talked about at the beginning. This is a smear campaign that call her if you want to trace him. I don't know where it came from but it sure sounds like one of the campaign call herself those charges were all lies. It's nonsense. I have never abused that none of my staff of abused that and I'll just leave it right there two calls like this indicate that Rod grams is ahead in the race for delegates. Maybe I'll ask your opponent's about that General Tso. Who's ahead here? What do you think how I was raised shaping up as you're going to the convention will have not been paying attention to who's ahead or who's behind?But judging from the attacks coming from the ride Grand campaign to to me and falsifying my positions on issues. I suspect that I might be in pretty good position birthday. Do you have any idea where based on my calls to delegates? I think that this is a real tight horse race and I think it remains to be seen how it's going to play out in the next nine days, but I'm cautiously optimistic Mike. I got a call this nonsense again because both Jen and Brad got to be doing the same polling that our office is doing in our office shows has more than two to one ahead in any of the delegate count. So again weather trying to prop themselves up here. I think reality means that you got to look at your number is a little better than you are because we're doing a very concerned effort to finding out where our support is and they don't reflect this at all. And I'm not taking anything for granted. I'm a hard worker and I say that the nothing replaces hard-working a campaign and I'm going to be talking with every dollar that I can between now and the convention I'm going to spend the day at the convention again talking about that likeTelling them why I'm in this race what I'm running for what I stand for. Look at my record cuz actions speak louder than words. All right, let's take another call. Hi, you're on Minnesota Public Radio. Where are you calling from? Okay, go ahead. rights for Native Americans and the rate of AIDS medical treatment in the US and you also voted against the new anti crime bill because it would allow minorities to challenge the death penalty and states were minorities are unfairly targeted for capital punishment in the Senate. Would you be a Jesse Helms of the north? Are you a bigot know? I'm not a bigot. I'm not a Jesse Helms of the north and Rod grams of Minnesota that grew up on a dairy farm and when you talk about voting no again DC statehood the majority of Congress and the Senate agree with me on that issue DC. It's a special situation set aside for the federal government. And the main purpose behind DC asking for Statehood is mainly to get two senators in congress. And I don't think that that should happen and I voted consistently against Adele voted against it in the next Congress and as a US senator and we can talk about the crime bill in Minnesota and he talks about being a bigot. I'm not a bigot when it comes to racial Justice quotas that they have included in this bill, which means that anybody could file an appeal on their death sentence or if they are sentenced to death because of a ray Show quota is this what we want to put into our justice system where we don't look at the crime or what was committed. We forget the victim but we look at racial Justice quotas that they're talking about. And by the way, this would be retroactive in this means the 3800 plus prisoners now on death row would be able to file new appeals to clogger quartz cost again millions of dollars. And when we talked about John Wayne Gacy of Chicago was put out the beginning of May this man who was accused of killing something like thirty three young boys. He could have appealed his death sentence because all of his victims were white and not the racial quota of his area. So I mean this is ludicrous and also this thing I put in there to affect would put about 10 billion dollars into programs that were not earmarked for the crime control. This was our Big City Mayors. We're going to get a payoff for supporting Clinton and the monies were going to be used at their discretion. So why there were some good things in this crime bill that could have gotten my support and vote the Democrat Take me to ship saw fit to wrap them into such a package that I had a vote no against and I stand by that both because it is not a vote in many counties attorneys around the country. I've also told me that this bill this Noble would have been better than this pill. So I'm not a bigot. I vote on what the issues are I think of what is concrete and this was not a bill that was going to help reduce crime. Well, let's ask the other candidates Jen Olson. How do you feel about the death penalty DC statehood that that crime bill? I believe that to the death penalty is appropriate for the most heinous crimes it is when we do have a system of appeals that goes on for 15 years. It obviously does not serve as an is a deterrent as one would like however, but I do believe that we do need to keep one thing it does do is it does keep those most vicious criminals Behind Bars instead of being released. How about DC statehood? If you give an issue much luck, I yes I have and I I think that if there is a concern about that area not being served and represented. I think it would be more appropriately joined with another state rather than creating a separate State. What about the crime Bill? What about the death penalty? And what about the statehood for Washington DC? I also would be in favor of the death penalty in certain circumstances. I spent two years out in Washington back in the eighties is a scent of chief of staff and then quite familiar with DC and I think that their interests are adequate. Represented certainly in the Congress and I don't see any reason for Statehood for them. I think all things considered there was much more good in that crime Bill than bad and I certainly would have voted for it. Okay very well. Let's go right back to the phones that with our next caller High. Where you calling from. The license plate teacher and my question is about outcome-based education. I really thought that you were against that I'll come Base education, but I also get this letter call 10 TN parents education Network and it talks about how you are offering a bill that's just holding it down two academics and I have personally don't think I'd be a good idea because that really lowers our standards across the nation. If we were to accept this type of idea and our I feel that our standards already in America are lower by other countries, which is quite obvious jentleson, what about outcome-based education? I do believe in supporting efforts to improve education improve public education, which means we want better outcomes. I am against the philosophy of Obe or outcome-based education that is based on three premises that Kids can learn given enough time it it to the same level given enough time and and varied method that success breeds success. Another words. Everybody's got to be pumped up whether they're cheating or not and that schools control the factors affecting success. I oppose that movement and the use of the methods that didn't work last time around and have just come back in a recycled. I do believe that we need to elevate standards. I do believe that we need to do that in the core academic areas in the foundational skills and that we should stay away from the attitudinal social engineering and getting at the values and attitudes and beliefs of young people and concentrate on the areas that are important and I've been I have a very clear record on that all the way through aren't most of these educational issues local issues state issues do what does a u.s. Senator really get involved in these and I wonder if this is a little bleed through from the governor's race that we heard in that question unfortunately education is becoming More of a federal issue then I believe it should constitutionally education belongs to the states and they delegate to the local school districts and the parents should have the key responsibilities of the federal government should not be in the business of setting the goals and standards and and determining the licensure of teachers and so forth that will mean that we will suck up more resources in a federal bureaucracy that are needed at the classroom level in working with children. Let me give the other candidates a chance to take a swing at outcome-based education Burton back and see how about you while I'm a Believer in in measuring those things in life that we can measure and I think we can measure things like Reading Writing and arithmetic and there should be accountability for those when outcome-based education gets into trying to measure soft tissues and I would say maybe citizenship in the child's character and things like that. I think that's inappropriate Camp can't be done shouldn't be done for that reason. I have serious reservations about outcome-based education, but I I also believe that all decision-making should be done at the lowest possible level and in the field of Education. I think that's very very true and with a lot of Parental input and I can tell you that in my local school district 3 weeks ago today or yesterday when they had the school board election, there were two seats up and there were 11 candidates. I can remember a couple years ago. There were two seats up in there were two or three candidates and I think this reflects increasing concern on the part of parents and taxpayers about the educational system and the interest in the involvement. They want in it ride grams. Do you want to take a quick run at the education question while I am definitely against outcome-based education. I've been very strong and that issue but Jen says she has a very clear record and she does have a very clear record. She tells us she's against Obe but yet she was a sponsor of the bill and this is Senate file bill number 630 along with a liberal Democrats rice. God ticklish doll the Poconos and Jen Olson build. States authorize an outcome-based education requiring the measurement of learning outcomes in Korea different and Innovative forms of measuring outcomes such as let me give me an example of an outcome-based through a lot new high school over in Stillwater and their outcomes are based on attitude and behavior not math science or English and I've got some other things here that Charlotte eyes are Biden education Consulting speaker writing specialist in Obe and Cynthia Weatherly as Director of Education analysis and research system and they say that no one who would propose this type of legislation with generals and has proposed could possibly be against outcome-based education. It's more often that not that these are predetermined behavioral attitudes outcomes are in direct conflict with those held by the majority of parents. So I'll gym says she has a very clear record on this. I believe she does her clear record is that she does support outcome-based education I on the other hand fought very hard recently hr6. That was a bill that was to reauthorize Elementary and secondary education. I fought hard for two days. Over 1 word called public to get the word public into that the federal government was going to certify all full-time teachers know it had to be all full-time public teacher so did not affect private profile are homeschoolers and we went to the floor for two days supported amendments and work hard and do the Bates in with other staff to make sure that that change was made by the way, we voted against HR 6 because it does include many of the things that would extend the federal government's arm into the classroom in Minnesota and other words would usurp Authority from the state and local school district have fought very hard to try to keep that from happening. We made the improvements we put in the bill and then hold it against what I did for it to where was the Michael substitute with a would have put more control than to the hands of parents local school districts in the state and not the federal government. So I think this debate if it's an important issue overawe education. I think that the questions are very clear in his dad mentioned. She has a very clear a chance to respond. Voltage and worked for 2 days to put public in there. I say shame on you. The federal government has absolutely no business getting into dealing with issues of licensure of teachers. All 51 states do that. And that is not a perogative or should it be up a role for the federal government that entire amendment should been removed not the is the replacement of the private and homeschool licensure with public. So there I say that it shows that you don't know where education decision making really belongs asked if they ask him if he's very well that has to the bill that you are referring to that is a charter school bill. It was nice strong. I listen to you the the charter school Bill and that's what they are. That is what they're called whether we call them outcome-based or not. You know, I'll come based. S words are perfectly legitimate. If you're trying to teach children to read it is an outcome and that is the basis for your effort. So just because those two words are used does not mean it is the Obe philosophy. So I suggest you do a little homework charter schools are a means of introducing some competition into the public school system that allows teachers buildings within a district parents or other groups to come before aboard and propose a way in which they believe they can achieve better results. We have the Metro school for the deaf as a charter school. Tyvola Meadowlands continued forward as a as it at a school when they're District had to close as a charter school. There are groups of homeschool parents that want 8 have have founded a school that it will be starting this fall up in in anoka-hennepin District that wanted to have some of the benefits of heavy parental involvement in their school. Yes, they are working and they Pause achieving outcomes. There is nothing wrong with that. They want to do a better job of than what the public school system is doing and they have convinced their entire board to support this I support efforts of choice and competition in public education and I will not I'm a very proud of it. I will not back down from that. Whatever name you want to label them to linksys with some outcomes that one particular Charter School used is is a taking a wild leap in logic and if they if people want to choose outcomes that I may disagree with that's their choice. It's not a mandate and it is not it's up to people to convince the parents and families and children to attend that school. It's a matter of choice. Okay, we have a lot of invitation experts do not agree with Jen Amber rice got statements in the committee said this is an outcome-based education Bill. And also when you look at who can determine those outcomes, the goals are set by the state. This is what we're taught. They're going to take the power away from the parents. And that's why this is such a bad Bill Oba Oba would be determined by goals set by bureaucrats. And then if schools are under that Charter will have to follow those goals. And that is my complaint. And while the parents might want to do something if they're in line with that the state or the federal government could dictate those outcomes and that makes me feel even worse we have to move on to some other issues. We do have a lot of callers on the line as you may have guessed kind of a heated rice here between the three Republican candidates for the US Senate endorsement ride Grand General in Bourg mackesy, and let's go right to the phones now high you're on Minnesota Public Radio. Shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican and I'm just wondering in that Spirit as to the validity of a public debate in this nature. I mean any Slants that are put Against the winner are just going to be picked up and run with the by the dfl or by the Democratic candidate. This reminds me of pastors trying to punch each other out. I'd like to have two candidates if this is a good time to thrash out things in public rather than bring them in private. It has this race got into heated bird magazine. What do you think? No, I don't think it's got too heated. I think there are legitimate issues that that have been brought to the floor for discussion. And I think that they didn't. Mr. Peterson is is worried about some issues or items of information being generated from the Republicans in this race at the dfl will pick up on I think we don't give the dfl enough credit. They're doing their research on a daily basis and I am sure that they are aware of the issues that they would confront any one of the three of us on in the Statewide election. Okay? Well, let's not let's go to another call while you're on Minnesota Public Radio concerning the billion dollar tax cut bill that he authored and help get your the legislature. And I also wanted to ask him about His record in at when he was the fake Commerce commissioner. He came down on the side of consumers most of the time dealing with it with issues of the insurance industry and so forth and I wanted to ask him to make a few comments on that and I also wanted to ask mr. Grams since your record or since you're so adamant about your voting record in Congress. Why is it that you say one thing to minnesotans and another thing to the people at Washington and what I'm talking about specifically is the lobby has Phil bill that you voted for or rather you voted against because you told us that you wanted a tougher ethics bill, but you told the Wall Street Journal that you voted against the bill because it was too tough on lobbyists and that you supported the theater job in the things that they had to do an ineffective killed it and and voted to keep all the perks and all the different things a lobbyist do for Congressman. You're also on your record for Farm. 04 11U voted against every single measure that came up for Minnesota Farmers in the legislature. Why is that? Okay, let's let's take it from there because he first to you the billion dollar tax cut in the legislature. But when the Republicans ran in the 84 election, one of the things that we campaigned on was the Surplus it was in the treasury and we said we would return it to the taxpayers if elected and we were like it Dave Jennings was elected speaker and he asked me to the carry the bill and we went through a very contentious session doing battle in the trenches with the Democrats to finally get this bill passed in and I'm proud of of my authorship in the fact that that I was able to steer that through to a successful completion. But can I just ask you though because after that bill pasta the next election the Republicans in the house last 18 seats, what happened was that tax cut not popular with minutes. Is that larger but I don't know Mike if there's any relationship between the the tax cut and the next election, but but I can tell you that I think that the billion dollar tax cut was the fair and appropriate thing to do and I think it was well-received by minnesotans because it hasn't happened very often now as to when I was at the Commerce commissioner is as the listing public probably knows the Commerce Department regulates the insurance banking Securities and real estate Industries many times of Commerce commissioner will get into a situation where he has to decide between the interests of the insurance companies and of the consumers and a while I come from a business background. I did find myself in many situations where I had to say no to the insurance companies and take the the part of of the Consumer Price and while I tried to strike a balance and represent the interests of both I did come down on the side of consumers were appropriate because that's the role of the Commerce Commissioners look out for the consumer. As well as looking out for the welfare of the business is it to business in the state? Certainly including the insurance industry, which is a good job Creator and in our good corporate citizens and Rod grams a couple questions for you. What about the lobbying Reform Bill and your record on Farm issues? Okay first on the billion dollar tax cut the Republicans got to a 1986. I always applauded an effort like that when Republicans and can do that in the first had a hand in it. That was a good job. One thing. I can say good that I think birthday did when we look at it as his work as Commerce Secretary and I'm specifically father said he fell on the side of consumers. I think the biggest disaster was the case that was just settle just a few months back here and it was the wcra the workers compensation reinsurance act which cost businesses small business job providers in Minnesota over four hundred million dollars that went back to the insurance companies and not to the small business people who could have provided more jobs from this and this was basically done because of a bill drafted by Birdman. With the help of some liberal Democratic friends like Bill Lutheran Rodger, Moe. He didn't go to the Republican side for advice and input he went to the Democratic side drop this plan offered. It was thrown out by the courts just a short time ago and the refund four hundred million dollars did not go to Consumers did not go to small business in job creators. It went back to the insurance company real problems with what he did there. I see a chance just to just to just to read about you there and then we'll get back to the other bills that I think you're Reinventing history. Now what happened there was this bill was a consensus Bill agreed upon from the Democratic Leadership ride. You weren't there. Let me tell you what happened and this bill if you if you'd read the newspaper accounts, you'll see exactly what happened. This bill was a consensus bill of Governor Carlson, Senator Bill Nelson, Senator Johnson, Senator Mall Representatives, swiggum & D lawn. Who is he Secret that point in time it was a jointly agreed upon procedure and the purpose of it was to get that money from the wcra and get it back to the small businesses of this state and we all worked as hard as we could to craft a bill that would do that. Unfortunately. I don't have any control over what a Fred federal court does but bear in mind that this this procedure in this bill was signed off on by both parties including the Republicans over to came to the independent Republicans after was a done deal to deal with than worked out with the dfl Linda runbeck toe joint committee. She doesn't understand insurance, but you didn't see how this could work through a red flag throwing up all the roundest bill. You still pursued you still sent it to the courts knowing that had a great opportunity being struck down, but you did you put small business at risk. I told you I talked to Small Business Leaders all over Minnesota and one thing they continually brought up about what is wrong with Burt mackesy. And that is he didn't do the deal. He should have done with the wcra and they were very up. That the money they lost because of this deal. But now this is coming from the mouths of a small business people and others and and not from me in. This is where I get the information welrod have any of those small businessmen call me but I had a $10 bill before this bill was even written. I had numerous conference calls with Senator Benson. It was a minority leader at that point in time and representative swaggin the Republicans were in on this as well as the governor's office from day one and the way I operate when I'm the Commerce commissioner representing all the people of the state is a consensus with both parties because that's the only way it can make a good-faith attempt and everybody participated in that compromise decision including the Republicans on the the steering committee riding. You better get that straight. Okay, we have about 20 minutes left to go. So I do want I want an answer them. Absolutely. Go ahead. I did vote against it because I thought and I said this many times that Americans should be outraged that this Congress would shape and put together a bill to fool the Americans that they were going to do reform and they never did you look at I'm running for a Statewide office would have been so easy for me to sit on the floor of the house and vote Yes on this to appear that yes, I was going along with this bill the Wall Street Journal interview if you read that as you said you did you also noted in there that many leading Democrats said They wish they could have voted the way Rod grams. Did he had the guts to vote against this bill, but politically they did not vote against it. So it was a political vote not policy in the only way that we can distinguish a difference between Republicans and Democrats the go along mentality that Burton Jen have displayed and saying they would vote for this bill or that bill when it is obviously against Republican philosophy and to send a bill to to Fulham arrogance to pull the wool over their eyes because this bill does not rule out anything. It does not cut out lunch is it does not cut out trip to Florida or to Europe or anyplace else. It just said, Who can pay in who cannot pay disco defies some of the problems that we have at the system. So I'm very proud of the both that I took it was a vote that took I think some guts to stand up and say their Emperor has no clothes. This is a bill that was a bad Bill Americans are being fooled by this. It is not reforming what I said. I'm voting no against this in a protest and I want a bill out here that talks about reform and not just meaningless rhetoric that we here and quickly Rod grams on your farm record. Just basically look at one thing that I think was a good vote for Minnesota agriculture that's got to be NAFTA and already exports Minnesota rap about 15% this year over what they were last year. And so I stand very I'm a dairy farm of a kid that grew up on the farm on that I support farmers and I do not back away and I have not taken issues that I've hurt American farmers or Minnesota Farmers in anyway. All right, let's go right back to the phones because we do have a lot of callers on the line high. You're on Minnesota Public Radio. Giving one acre of land to set up a national Clearinghouse for research on breast cancer and cervical cancer at the Columbia hospital in Washington. Don't you think this research and women's cancer is worth one acre of land. What you guys are doing your homework, I know what you're talkin about. This was at one acre of land in which the was going to be sold. But the reason I voted against it was way below fair market value. In other words. They wanted to give it away rather than the government getting the just do that. It had for this not the government wants to make a donation of this fine. But if it wants to be in the business of selling real estate, let's just get a fair market value. That's all we ask for the same with grazing lands out in Western the parts of the United States word and were talking about the lumber industry is everybody is all that we have below price limber below-cost Timber sales this all fits into the same thing. Everybody should be in the market of Payne fair market Price, whether it's a one acre parcel of land in Washington DC or whether it's grazing land out west or Lumber industry interest. And so when you're confusing the two that's why it's not about that. I'm ashamed of again. It's about that. I thought all we're asking for is this group should just pay fair market value for the land that they wanted to acquire. I strongly support research funding for you know cancer research and another thing. It's not that I'm against that my father passed away from cancer. I'm not going to say that although I don't think we need more cancer research. I'm a very strong advocate of making sure that we do the most that we can to ensure that we find the cures for these dreaded disease has but we can't do it in the way that you talk about him. So I'll just leave it there further the effort of research in breast cancer don't know why it wasn't the push for donating the lands in at the very least if it was giving it for a lesser amount that social experiment. That's the government mentality of giving everything away. Why not do that? Wilbert mackesy, do you have to have a light, Yes. I do have a comment my mother-in-law died of breast cancer. My mother has suffered from breast cancer. And I think that the responsible legislators should do whatever they can to push for breast cancer research and I think that we all have to be Republicans with a heart. Okay. Let's take another call right away High. Where are you calling from your on Minnesota Public Radio? Hello calling from North Branch. Okay, what's your question last year? We took in 50 million more than we paid in Social Security. We took in 14 million more than we pay to Medicare but for the rest of the federal budget, we spent 350 more million than we collected in taxes that year. We collected 609 billion and we spent 963 value. My question is what would you do to balance the federal budget exactly? What would you do to pay off before trillion-dollar federal debt? That's currently $43,000 per household. All right. Well that sounds like a nice quiet reasonable issues question Rod grams. Why don't you go ahead and say that's what I did. I introduced to Family First budget Bill back in July of last year and after about six seven months of hard work. I convinced Republican leadership in both the house in the Senate to offer. This is the Republican alternative plan to the Clinton budget and what it does is it cost for a hundred and twenty billion dollars in tax cuts. No tax increases in this bill is the president did 255 billion dollar and record tax increases but a hundred and twenty billion dollars in tax cuts for middle-class Americans those who have been asked to pay the bills about 40 billion dollars in business incentive to create new jobs get the economy moving and it also got at the heart of the problem. And that was we have to trim spending in our bill call for nearly a trillion dollars of eight years in spending cuts responsible spending cuts that would balance the budget at the end of 8 years. In fact, we have a hundred and three billion dollar Surplus in to begin repaying this huge Federal deficit that we And we have worked very hard to make sure that the budget is a prime. We cannot continue to pass these huge that's on to our children year after year. We can't put everything off deficit spending and to sign or children's or grandchildren's names to these huge budget deficit and as a republican freshman to get our budget bill in front of the Congress as the alternative vote took a lot of hard work, but I think the minnesotans know where I'm coming from on this issue that I've worked very hard to do that and we're going to continue to portion from the floor of the Senate. I can't even allowed ourselves stronger advocate for balancing the budget tax cuts for minnesotans in all of America and getting our budget and spending under control for Minnesota alone. It would have been about $500 a year return to the pockets of taxpayers. So I think this was a very important piece of legislation and I agree with the collar we cannot continue to spend widely. We've got to get our spending under control my bill Families First would do that for a magazine. I think that's a deficit in the dad is really like an albatross around the necks of our children in and their children. The thing that really aggravates me about the federal debt. Is it the money that were spending on his just money that would go right out the window of this studio. It can't be spent on roads Bridges National Defense Education Healthcare any of the worthwhile things in society. And what I would like to attempt is a sort of the takeoff on what the grace commission dead, but they never came to fruition. I would like to to get to the Senate and go to the Congress and the president say, all right. I want your prior concurrence in this particular plan and when it comes back there will be no alterations. No amendments you will accept it as is and what we will do then we will get arbitrarily 500 people from around the country who are experts in financial reorganization bankruptcy turn around situations, bring them to Washington at the expense of their companies assign each one of them to the 500 largest agencies a federal government and say, all right, we will Give you one year to work your private sector magic you imagine that this is a distress Corporation and go in and make the V Cuts in the changes. That would be necessary Congress and the president will accept the plan and I think that's a good first step because unfortunately our elected officials of just not had the political will to make any real meaningful changes. I just like to say congratulate birth because that is my family first bill. That is the proposal. We have we set up a base closure type condition to cold spending down recall on the public sector as they did in the base closure and we set up a list of priorities with the help of Congress and we create an up-or-down go to work. Thanks very much. That's a strong endorsement of what I have proposed in Families First he'll now be the mackesy grams proposal a chance to because she might have something to add to this discussion about that bill didn't pass and I do support that the the idea of holding the line on taxes. I think the pressure needs to be on the tax side of the equation. And we shouldn't allow politicians the money to spend but unfortunately at the federal level we don't have the requirement that we have in Most states and we do in Minnesota is it we have to have a balanced budget. And so therefore when we put the pressure as we have done and Republicans have successfully turned around the behavior in in Minnesota from passing the tax bill 252 passing the tax bill first instead of deciding all of the spending that we want to do and then raising taxes to cover it. So we need to keep pressure on the tech side of the equation but we need the discipline of a balanced budget amendment to hold the line on spending extremely important. Also it is to change that behavior that politicians always have of throwing money at problems. We have time and time and time again will spend money on on things that make matters worse instead of better and it's that feel good spending we need to do the hard work of thinking through the consequences and Are investment on in public Solutions on programs that work and until we do we're not going to reduce the pressure that comes from our societal difficulties on the government to spend that money. So it has to be fought on two fronts and sin simplistic political rhetoric is not going to do the job Jen Olson Rod grams and Bert mackesy are the three candidates seeking the IR endorsements for the US senate seat that Dave durenberger is leaving lieutenant. Governor Joan l d r stat is also running for Senate on the Republican side. She's not actively seeking the endorsement today. And so that's not why we were talking to her today. We will have her on there before the September primary. Certainly. Let me ask another political question. Who are you supporting in the governor's race? Jentleson? I'm neutral in the governor's race, but I'm pledged to support the endorsed candidate. Well, how can you be neutral you have a republican incumbent up at the state capitol? Why I'm neutral just as the governor's the governor candidates are neutral in this. Bird magazine and I too am neutral and Anna's Jen pointed out the gubernatorial candidates of taking a hands-off approach to the senate race as well Rod grams. How about you also I'm not involved in the governor's race are the senate race is taking 25 hours a day, you know, and if you're going to win you're going to be out there working your campaign candidacy in your campaign. So we're going to let the delegates decide who they're going to choose for the governor and the delegates shouldn't the fact that you have an incumbent Republican in the governor's office right now make a difference in the minds of these delegates. Jenison I'm not going to try to put my myself into the minds of others. I can only put deal with my own issues. I get the feeling that no matter how hard I try. Nobody is going to answer that one. So let's go back to the phones and we will hear from another color. Hi. I have one concern with Congressman grams. I'm told that in the year-and-a-half since he took office that you've lost all but three of the members of your 1992 steering committee and over half of the original members of your Congressional staff and also for out of the top five workers on your 1992 campaign. I've also heard that these people and now serving on genitals and a majority of these people are now serving on Jenny & Bourke mac and cheese campaign. Wondering if you have a comment about that or would be able to explain the reason behind it. Thank you. Rob Graham's. What about that? What is basically say, you always have a rotation of Staff you have disagreements and things like that people leave for different reasons. I mean my office is no different than other office is my campaign is no different than other other other campaigns some members of my staff. I have fired for insubordination people doing things that they thought we were best for their own political interests and not for the constituents of the 6th District or forwarding forwarding the agenda of my office. So I have no bones about some of the people I've had to fire others have left on their own and I'll maybe with some disagreements but I run to the office the way I think it has to be run and I want loyal support from those who work for me. So I just it's nothing unusual to have staff changes no place weather is in business whether it's in the offices or whether it's in Congress. I let me ask the other two candidates because there are some high-profile people who used to work for Rod grams a day poem Leon oistad who are working for your campaigns. Now is that the reason we're seeing some of this what can only be described as a some tension between the campaigns of bird mackesy. No, I don't think that's necessarily the case Mike. I think that that the issues in the in the facts that have been raised speak for themselves. And I don't think that has anything to do with who is working for whom Jen. How about you any I welcome the talent that has either been fired or his left the ride Graham's office to work on my campaign some very very committed dedicated people and I'm also very honored by the fact that all of my former chair people campaign manager's secretary legislative assistants in turns through my both my career and even in the in the service in the legislature, the list is long of those that are either either volunteering or have contributed to my campaign and I'm I'm I'm very appreciative of that. Okay, let's go back to the phone's high. You're on, Minnesota Public Radio. Hello. Yeah, where you calling from there? And I put more negative this from him this hour against those other two people that I've heard from them to against him and I'm not an active Republican and they don't support either one of the other candidate. Okay. Well, I guess everybody has his own opinion. I'll just briefly say that I haven't been negative in this at all. I'm just trying to bring up the records into some of the boats that my opponents have made over their lives and of whether they've been in the legislature Commerce Secretary are in the Senate. This is not a negative campaign. I haven't gone after them personally or attack them in. Anyway, I'm just asking them to explain their record as they are trying to avoid their record and that's all I've done. So if this sounds negative at the viewer, I don't think most people are to The Listener note some of the issues out there and where they's two candidates have fallen and that's all I've been trying to bring up. So if it's if it sounds I think we're sticking to the issues. Well, right. I just like to say to you that if it anytime you'd like to sit down with me and go over my record both in the letter to a teacher at a time and is Commerce commissioner? I'd be more than happy to do it with you because I'll run on it any day that we're running a little short of time. So let's try to get another caller on high. You're on Minnesota Public Radio for the Senate. He criticized President Clinton for appealing on behalf of Michael Fay in the Singapore caning case. I was wondering if you'd like to see some progressives and reactionary and cruel and unusual punishment like this in the United States has to tell the color I said, I never advocated Kini but I can respect the laws that Singapore puts in place and I think the president was way out of step in trying to challenge their laws. This was a young man who went over the country knew the consequences did the crime and all he was going to do is pay for it. And I think if the president wants to change the laws, you should look at sea For those streets are safe to walk. We can't walk the streets of New York or Washington DC. All I advocated was while I said why probably don't Advocate canteen and that's that is kind of a harsh punishment, but my argument was that we need sure and Swift punishment in this country, but there are laws on the books and this continued Democratic liberal argument that. Prevention will help rather than punishment my mother and the others have told me that there's only two ways to deter crime in that is the fear of God or the fear of punishment. And I think that's what we got to look at and not talk about our cake type of a punishment because that's not what we're talking about. That is what we described and we oppose Keening. Let's see if we can squeeze one more call Iran in the time. We have left eye you're on Minnesota Public Radio. Any of them actually owns a gun themself. Let's make it quick because we are running out of time but mackesy I'm opposed to gun control. I have a a 12 gauge shotgun in my closet at home. And what I would like to see us do is tack Turn on an automatic five years extra for anyone convicted of a felony while using a gun jentleson. I do not support gun control and do believe we are to enforce the laws rather than plea plea bargain away the the use of guns in in commission of a crime. I have inherited from my father several Firearms, which I have not had the opportunity to are the time to get trained in use and I intend to do that one of these days Rod grams your position on a strong supporter of the Second Amendment rights, and I've gotten the supporting endorsement of the NRA over this issue and I sure I own guns, I grew up with a gun I grew up on a farm. I've been a hunter all my life and I just want to protect this right and privilege for my sons and other son's across the country to enjoy. Okay, and now I can give you about ten seconds each on this one, but let me ask it to you very quickly. Why should minnesotans elect a republican this year? There's a Democratic president majority of Democrats in both houses. Wouldn't it be Peoplezone interested to put somebody else in the majority jentleson. I think we do need somebody else in the majority at the in the US Senate and I think returning a republican to the US Senate is the appropriate way to help toward that end for Magothy. Well, I think this country is is swinging so far to the left was President Clinton and the liberal Democratic Congress that I think now is definitely the time to put a republican back in the senate in Minnesota. And this seat and I think that they're based on my background experience both in the private sector and in government that I make a very very strong candidate to represent all the people Minnesota Wild grams 10 seconds. Not only does the Republic we need Rod grams in the Senate. I provided leadership by my words my actions speak louder than words. We need a stronger voice in the US Senate. I am the only electable Okay. Well, I guess we must have run out of time on ride grams. I apologize for that, but would like to thank all three of you ride grams Bert mackesy and Generals and for being here.