(00:00:00) It's a pleasure to welcome all of you to Minnesota meeting today. We also extend a welcome to the radio audience throughout the Upper Midwest who are hearing this program on Minnesota public radio's midday program broadcast of Minnesota meeting are made possible by the law firm of Oppenheimer wolf and Donnelly with offices in Minneapolis. St. Paul and major cities in the United States and Europe. Minnesota meeting is a public affairs Forum which brings National and international speakers to Minnesota members of Minnesota meeting represent this communities leaders from corporations government Academia and the professions Minnesota meeting is pleased to present today's speaker Hussein hammami the Jordanian ambassador to the United States Ambassador, her mommy will discuss the latest developments in the Persian Gulf and what they mean for the Middle East as a whole and for Nations whose armies are poised in the Saudi desert. Ambassador hammami graduated from the American University in Cairo and served as ambassador to Syria from 1978 to 1984. He represented Jordan as ambassador to Egypt for four years before coming to Washington in August 1988. Following his presentation questions will be addressed from the audience Jane Rasik and Gloria mcclenahan of Minnesota meeting will move among you to manage the question and answer session. Please use the slips of paper on your tables to jot down questions for discussion. It is now my pleasure to present to you Ambassador Husain, hammami. (00:01:58) Thank you very much doctor panfish. ladies and gentlemen the subject of my address today is the Middle East conflicts and opportunities these days of course the first part conflicts seem to be the the issue of the day the overriding concern but opportunities do exist and indeed. It is our hope. that these opportunities I would produce that. type of results That would avoid for us in the Middle East. the tragedy of War and for you also for the West the tragedies of the loss of your dear ones and produce the (00:03:10) assured economic interest integration (00:03:14) between the Middle East and it's oiled. and the rest of the world as it needs that all right. The dramatic changes that have taken place in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe have triggered the hopes that a new era free from confrontation and conflict is Dawning on the world. A New World Order of Tranquility is slowly taking shape. The Arab world sits astride a major portion of the world's oil reserves. It is a such far too important to be left out as the edifice of the New World Order takes shape. The Arabs yearn to be part of that order to share in shaping it and to contribute as they did centuries ago to the enrichment of mankind. This may sound like a pipe dream and it and it may well be if the Middle East stays its present present tragic course. To turn things around requires the concerted efforts of the world and of the regional States themselves to address the root causes of the present climate of desperation instability and more that pervades the middle east region. The fact remains that there are serious points of tension and issues of contention that need to be addressed and resolved before the Arab world can finally attain peace and stability is so desperately needs both for the benefit of its own people's and for the World At Large. (00:05:03) The present crisis in the (00:05:05) Gulf has rudely awakened the world to the existence of tensions in the Middle East that have long been treated either with benign neglect or total disregard. In addition in addition to the present Gulf crisis, there are persistent problems ranging from the rise of radical fundamentalism. The arab-israeli conflict to the little talked about problem of the widening economic inequalities among nations of the region. All these problems feed on each other. Addressing any one of them cannot be accomplished in isolation of the of the others. Those who are too eager to see the destruction of Iraq. Fail to grasp that this will create a vacuum that will readily be filled by religious fundamentalism. Let us not forget that it was Iraq supported by the United States and the West That successfully contained the surging threat of fundamentalism from Iran in the last decade. One must also not forget that Iraq is secular in nature and therefore represents in spite of its many many shortcomings a viable force that can cannot counteract the spread of fundamentalism that of world. It is extremely important to differentiate however difficult. It might be at the present between Iraq the country and Iraq the government. (00:06:48) any military (00:06:48) operation that the targets Iraq the country and viable Regional power will push the region into a long era of radicalism long after your troops and other multinational troops have returned to their homes. Iraq is also an essential element in the present balance of power between the Arabs and Israel. The preservation of this balance will be the necessary Cornerstone upon which arab-israeli peace will eventually be built. A military strike that weakens Iraq will eliminate that balance and leave Israel as the only Regional superpower. It will then have no real motivation to come to terms with its Arab Neighbors. Iraq's occupation of Kuwait must be reversed but reversed (00:07:55) peacefully. (00:07:57) We maintain this was Within Reach in the early stages of the crisis except for actions that were taken then to preempt that possibility a peaceful solution is still Within Reach if nurtured in a proper climate. Wielding the stick alone without the carrot will not bring it about but will be a recipe for war. During the past three months, they're not States and its efforts to focus attention on the gulf crisis has chosen to downplay the arab-israeli conflict and succeeded initially into in placing it on the back burner. the recent shooting however off 20 Palestinians in Jerusalem at Al Haram Sharif gave proof that such attempts at decoupling the tensions of the region are unsustainable for while it is true that the reasons behind the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait had nothing to do with the arab-israeli conflict. There can be no denying that the difference between the way the world has handled this crisis as compared to the way the world handled the arab-israeli conflict smacks in the minds of all the Arabs of the double standard. The linkage does did not spring out of an attempt at achieving simultaneous Solutions rather came about because of this unsustainable attempt to apply different yardsticks in dealing with similar problems. Again, while there is no denying the enormity of the tragedy that has hit Kuwait and the urgent need to redress that tragedy. What Israel has done to the Palestinians in the occupied territories is more or less reprehensible. In the last 23 years. of Israeli occupation of the West Bank the Gaza Strip the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem countless thousands of Palestinians were killed or maimed while thousands of others were expelled be on the board. Under the rules of the Israeli military occupation whole communities were systematically punished for acts of legitimate resistance undertaken by individuals. Homes were demolished people were detained for extended build up periods of time without due process trees were uprooted. The crops destroyed water wells were shut and sealed. Schools and Hoover and universities were closed down. Jordan agrees that no immediate linkage between the arab-israeli conflict in the Gulf crisis is feasible at this time. Nonetheless. We maintained that immediately after resolving the gulf crisis a serious and Urgent International effort should be exerted to resolve the arab-israeli conflict. Thirdly one cannot continue to ignore the growth economic inequalities prevalent in the Arab world. It is a fact that given the present level of economic assistance by the rich Arab countries to the poor in the region five percent of the Arabs have investments in the Western World, totaling six hundred and forty billion dollars. At a time when the remaining 95% of the heiress all that same Western World a total of 220 billion dollars. Whereas the capita income in some oil producing countries exceeds 25 thousand dollars per year. It is as low as 600 in some of the poorer Arab countries. A more equitable distribution of wealth is obviously imperative for the stability of the region. Just just as some of the poorer countries are contributing human resources for the security and development of the Richer countries. The rich must shoulder a bigger responsibility in the support of the economies of the popular ones. The net result would be and upgrading in the quality of life for both the receiver and donor Nations who joined interest would then be to preserve their shared political order? Addressing and dealing with the gulf crisis as if it was created in a vacuum might only succeed in resolving the immediate symptoms, but would do nothing to cure its causes. Hence would not bring about any long-term stability that we seek for the region. It is important just as we enjoyed them understand and agree with the West legitimate concerns about basic principles of Human Rights the sovereignty of Nations the freedom of choice that the West shouldn't understand the different causes of tension in our region and apply the same yardstick and the same bigger in dealing with them. It is imperative that just as we understand the West declared interest in safeguarding the free flow of oil that the West equally understand that we do have interests as well the reason I would region has produced strong men whose methods were to say the least destabilizing people like NASA in the 50s Qaddafi Khomeini. In the 70s and the 80s and Saddam Hussein today. This region is capable and the future of producing more such leaders. Unless a serious effort is undertaken to address and resolve. All the basic underlying causes of instability and tension in the Middle East. I would like to make it very clear at this point that there are two fundamental errors that brought us to the present situation in the Gulf. Iraq by invading a sister country has violated a basic principle in the Arab League chart. As well as the charter of the United Nations its actions that thus cannot be condoned and must be reversed. By the same token quoits insensitivity to repeatedly stated concerns by Iraq prior to the invasion prior to the invasion and its unwillingness to deal with those with what was clearly a major problem constituted on the part of Kuwait a grave error in judgment. And my mind they would do well to rethink. the events of the few months that preceded August second invasion. That's Jordan. Which has minimal natural resources, but which nonetheless has made great strides in the evolution of his political systems towards a democratic form of government, which has established a clear national identity and which has achieved one of the highest education rates in the region. Is in total agreement with the basic principle that the rest of the world shares with respect to this crisis. This is so because we enjoyed and fully understand and support the basic human principles that govern your way of thinking on issues of this nature today. Specifically, we enjoy dinner Against The Invasion by Iraq of Kuwait as a matter of principle. Jordan has always stood against acquisition of territory by force. We will never waver on this point and would contradict ourselves. If we take any other position Jordan also calls for the withdrawal of Iraq from Kuwait and the restoration of the legitimate government of that Nation Jordan believes that once withdrawn is achieved there should be negotiations between Iraq and Kuwait to resolve their Grievances and mutual concerns. The crisis did not start in a vacuum and as such it cannot be resolved in a vacuum. This policy of Jordan is consistent with their resolutions of the United Nations on this crisis, which have called for negotiations after withdrawal and which have stipulated for another for another brawl in that regard. Jordan also believes that it is wrong and morally reprehensible for Any Nation or entity to take hostages Jordan played an important part in negotiating the night United Nations convention Against The Taking of hostages and is party to the convention our record in joining the world with the global war against International terrorism is most consistent and impeccable. Jordan has fully abide by all United Nations resolutions including resolution 661 applying sanctions against Iraq despite the devastating effects on our economy indeed. If who ate was the initial focus of Saddam Hussein's actions. Jordan has become the chief victim of the aftermath of that Invasion and yet nobody seems to care quite simply our small country of three and a half million people which is widely acknowledged as both possessing. The best Workforce in the Arab world is on the brink of Extinction as a viable economic entity. Our primary exports of fruits and vegetables have dwindled to a trickle our once lucrative tourism has practically dried up and development aid from the west and from our rich Arab neighbors seems to have ceased because of an unfounded perception. The Jordan is secretly rooting for Iraq. Saudi Arabia our neighbor and a major market for our products could have come to our Rescue by compensating Jordan for the loss of the rocky oiled and trade with both Iraq and Kuwait but the Saudis perhaps out of genuine if growth misguidance see Jordan as an apologist for Iraq, and they have shunned us even humiliated us moreover. The gulf crisis has resulted in the return to Jordan of hundreds of thousands of our skill Jordanian and Palestinians who worked in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. This has meant a loss of almost 350 million dollars in Revenue by repatriation to Jordan and this also has meant means that our government will now have to spend more than 300 million dollars to provide unanticipated social social services to these involuntary returnees. The report of the United Nations secretary-general special Envoy to Jordan who was sent to assess the damage that that that happened to Jordan's economy after the with the application of the sanctions. Has estimated the Jordans losses this year and about 1.3 billion dollars. That is as of August 2nd until the end of 1990 1.3 billion dollars and next year at Double that figure Despite the repeated pledges of assistance from the world Community. Jordan has not received any help to date with our declining revenues and with Evelyn evaporating foreign aid coupled with increasing expenditures imposed on Iran Jordan. The economic future of my country is Bleak and indeed for foreboding. One wonders, why is Jordan being punished song? We are not critical of United Nations. Not of its resolutions on the contrary. We regard them as mandatory. However, we do not we do disagree with certain policies followed by some of our friends aimed ostensibly at achieving the objectives of withdrawal and the settlement of that problem. In other words. We have no disagreement on the need to restore legitimacy and the rule of international law. But we descend on the means elected to do so specifically the military confrontation, hence. We feel duty-bound to be honest with our allies and to tell them that though we agree on the objectives. We have differences on the means. One wonders if Jordan should be punished for being honest. For though dishonesty would have produced (00:21:17) quick Financial (00:21:18) rewards as we have seen in the case of other countries in the region we chose to stand by principle and be truthful with the leaders on peoples of the West. our traditional fence President Bush in explaining why he went along with the budget agreement sometime ago said that the agreement contained many things that he did not like but he had to compromise to achieve it. What we are calling for is not compromised before withdrawing of the lock from Kuwait but a serious effort after withdrawal to address the underlying causes that led to Iraq's Invasion and to resolve these issues to the sense to the satisfaction of both parties and the world Community. We also believe that war is not a reasonable option. And that the option of a political solution is attainable and must be pursued seriously and diligently we ask here. Is this an unreasonable position to take We have had a long historical relationship with the United States. We have valued and continue to value that relationship. We may sometimes disagree as we do now as we do now on how to resolve the gulf crisis, but let me assure you that your best friends in the Middle East are not necessarily those who will give you knee-jerk support for every action that you take without proper advice. We enjoyed in our democracy and I'm proud of it. Just like you are. and democracy involves descent our descent with you on the issue at hand must not lead you to turn your back on us and these times of diversity. Jordan which has often been on the receiving end of regional politics is today a trendsetter in the Middle East its successful Democratic experiment so far certainly bound to have a positive effect on the region as a whole. Indeed many people agree that a possible positive outcome of this crisis is the inevitable opening towards democracy in many of the regions countries once disguise is always resolved peacefully. It is thus important to see Jordans moves towards democracy in this light and suppression of this democracy as a result of a military confrontation or of increased political and economic pressure on Jordan would only lead to Greater instability is not only in Jordan. But throughout the region one has only to point to the Iranian Revolution revolution in Iran in 79 as an example of how such a suppression of the people's will has led to a regime which has increasingly advocated radical policies and fostered instabilities in our region. In short we have a golden opportunity to read them at least once and for all of the changes that have prevented from sharing the fruits of Peace of democracy and freedom, which the rest of the world is enjoying today. We can also do them that Middle East to further instability and destruction and I believe that the choice of is ours. Thank you very much. (00:24:53) Thank you. Mr. Ambassador will now have some (00:24:55) questions from Minnesota meeting members (00:24:57) and guests at Oshkosh. You have a first question. (00:25:00) Yes. (00:25:01) Mr. Ambassador to help us understand the (00:25:04) background of the (00:25:05) situation. Could you just give us a little bit of information on why Iraq chose to invade Kuwait but the stated reasons for The Invasion were (00:25:15) and then whether (00:25:16) or not Saddam Hussein is stated any conditions under which he would consider withdrawing and then lastly how will the Arab Coalition persuade (00:25:26) Saddam Hussein in the Iraqis to withdraw from Kuwait? (00:25:30) Well, this (00:25:32) answer to question requires a new address of 20 minutes (00:25:36) or so, but let me just in brief tell you on the first issue. (00:25:42) The immediate causes. I will go on to the (00:25:44) immediate grievances that Iraq had with with Kuwait. (00:25:50) The immediate grievances were simply a perception in the mind of Iraq. That could wait is over producing oil. Bring down the price of oil at a time when Iraq was on demand to settle billions of (00:26:09) dollars of debts that are due to do on it. (00:26:13) That is one point. The second point is a perception and indeed. I think that is a (00:26:18) genuine genuine grievance on the part of the Iraq of the side of the Rockies (00:26:22) that quaiities we're pumping oil from Arrow Mala field, which 95% of which lies under Iraq and 5% (00:26:33) lies under Kuwait (00:26:35) without consideration of (00:26:38) joint investment in that all joint utilization of that field. (00:26:43) A third problem was an immediate request by the Iraqis for for (00:26:50) debt relief from the qualities that the quit is were not forthcoming with (00:26:54) in essence. They Iraq is felt that the weight is rightly or wrongly that the quit is are out to get them. To make them go down on their knees and that is the (00:27:06) immediate cause of that that in the minds of the Iraqis that generated the are feeling that they should go on to quit. (00:27:16) Two days after the invasion he was saying together with several other Arab leaders were involved in shuttle diplomacy to try to contain this problem to resolve it. This is the opportunity that was lost and indeed. We are convinced that had events not preempted us. Saddam Hussein would have been out of (00:27:41) Kuwait long time ago. (00:27:44) What happened is that Saddam Hussein is a man who believes very much in the question of faith and so on. And as he went in because of his Grievances and he is a person who unfortunately does not hold that much to God for international legitimacy and the rule of law. He had his problems. He went in and in his mind. when the Arabs intervened he felt that fine. If you want me to resolve this problem, I'm willing to discuss it suggestion was made that a small Summit conference involving Iraq. Kuwait Saudi Arabia Jordan and Egypt be held injured and Saudi Arabia where Saddam Hussein of course, and the Emir of Kuwait would be attending. Saddam Hussein said in effect, I will go to that conference and I'm prepared to start withdrawal. And if you recall in the in those days some tanks were shown being (00:28:47) being loaded on trucks to to be hold back to Iraq (00:28:52) provided. He said that I do not in this mini Summit Stand Accused. I will not Stand Accused. I've got grievances. I don't want to be here. Sorry to be here as an apologist for Saddam Hussein time to explain his own frame of mind. I will not Stand Accused. He said in any such meeting, but I'm willing to of discuss openly all the problems that the greatest myself and all all of you other Arabs feel need to be resolved. Now one day after agreement was reached to a to hold that many Summit. Sadly an Arab League foreign ministers meeting was held in Cairo that called on Iraq to withdraw from Kuwait and on the gold for the society sustaining and preserving the legitimacy of its government and so on which we all supported. This is no question will support all that. One item in that resolution condemns araki aggression. We suggested in that meeting let us not. Get into this business of condemnation. Now, let us see the result of the summit mini Summit meeting in Jeddah if things work out. Then we will have reached our goal if things don't work out then we can go into (00:30:21) condemnation. So (00:30:22) on but condemning Iraq at this time, we fear will cause Saddam Hussein to refrain from attending that Summit and indeed the majority of the Arab countries saw fit to to issue that condemnation and immediately Saddam Hussein said no, I will not go too. (00:30:44) To Jeddah (00:30:47) it's a question of style of a person with the background that many of you will not understand but it's a perception in his mind that he has been in effect is being crucified. And he was revolting against it. As soon as the forces from the United States and the Western Alliance started arriving. in Kuwait, Saddam Saddam Hussein preempted all this Move the the conflict to a further step up and an extra weight. So it seems to me the way to deal with this problem. Is to get results as I said in my statement the stick along will not do the trick the stick and the carrot the carrot does not mean rewarding aggression is no question, but the carrot means negotiating and negotiating under fairly realistic and fairly pragmatic circumstances dealing with the genuine grievances, but not giving in under no circumstances under any (00:31:59) circumstances on issues of principle (00:32:01) Mary Hansen. Mr. Ambassador, you claim that a peaceful solution to the Iraq Kuwaiti conflict is achievable. What do you see as the characteristics of a framework for such a solution and what incentives could be preferred to Saddam Hussein to withdraw from Kuwait. That would not be simply viewed as Chamberlain asked acquiescence to (00:32:24) aggression. One of the sad aspects of this cloud of this (00:32:30) crisis is the name calling. (00:32:34) and name-calling is not only symbolic. It really has precipitated the complication of the problem. Someone the other day said that Saddam Hussein is no Hitler. He may be worse than Hitler. He may not be. But calling him (00:32:58) Hitler (00:33:00) certainly Paints the caller into a corner where from where he cannot go out and negotiate. Otherwise, he would be called the Chamberlain an appeaser. Why paint ourselves into corners? The stakes are so high the stakes in peace are very high. And the stakes in wall are absolutely devastating. in all fairness the option of peace and I really do not know what are what are what are the elements that are involved but a serious effort as at at negotiations Once Saddam Hussein gets the message that over the past two months. He has been calling for negotiations. Nobody was listening. That well, we're going to sit and negotiate with this man. We're going to tell him exactly where we stand that the sanctions will continue. The Embargo will be there that he will have to draw completely but we will talk about what his grievances are. Let us try that I think in all fairness to the kids of the American armies of the British of the French of the Saudis and the Egyptians in the syrians and the Emirates and all those kids who are potential immediate victims in all fairness to these people that option needs to be (00:34:19) tested. Thank you. Mr. Ambassador. You are listening to Ambassador Hussain who mommy the Jordanian ambassador to the United States speaking to the Minnesota meeting on the station's of Minnesota Public Radio. We have a question here from Sally Pillsbury. Yes, I'd like to ask the question about Jordan itself that we know (00:34:38) that we're we're that there had been unrest in Jordan a few years ago and later led to elections in that and I assumed that that was happening now is the solidifying force if I wanted you could tell us about yes, but internally certainly over the past few years up to 1988 indeed. Jordan was affected by the declining prices of oil in the Gulf because Jordan has in Kuwait a hundred thousand people working in Kuwait and supporting 350,000 of their relatives their own families in Saudi Arabia. We have also some hundred thousand in the Emirates and Qatar and Bahrain and Oman. We have several tens of thousands of our (00:35:20) Jordan has working in those countries. (00:35:22) Now the economies of those countries suffered a recession as a result of the decrease in the oil and the price of oil. This recession reflected itself on our economy those who earn money of our Jordanian working in Kuwait and in the gulf and less money (00:35:42) and hence (00:35:43) transfer to Jordan less money, the gulf countries were giving us assistance that was decreasing all the time so that our economy which is not an oil economy, but affected very much by the whole economies in the region went into slow down eventually with a 1988. We had to readjust our budgetary guidelines to take into consideration the constraints that we have and we've had riots in Jordan riots because the prices of essential goods were going up. our decision was the decision of King Hussein was I'm not going to send the policeman after these rioters. I'm going to tell them come and share the responsibility of government and elections were held and (00:36:40) completely free elections. I think at (00:36:43) Witnesses from all over the world can attest to that and we have now an ongoing democracy. of course democracy means accepting The decision of the voters the voters decided that 30% Oh, no, not more than 30 30 out of 80 members of parliament. That is maybe 40% of our Parliament is fundamentalist. Yes, it is fundamentalist. They are not happily of the of the coloring which cannot be reasoned with most of them can be reasoned with but we accept the decision of our people and we think that by sharing responsibilities in Parliament. We will be able to overcome our economic problems. Now, we went into an economic adjustment program in agreement with the (00:37:51) international monetary fund (00:37:53) it meant shutting down (00:37:54) government expenditure (00:37:56) raising more indeed an effect belt-tightening a lot. and as we were going truly looking at putting our foot in the steps in the direction of solving our economic problems this crisis in the Gulf exploded and as I mentioned a little earlier, maybe if Kuwait is the prime victim of this crisis Jordan certainly is The most hard-hit after Kuwait as a result of this crisis and that is why we think that unless assistance recognition of the problems that we have and assistance is forthcoming. I'm afraid that this Democratic experiment of Jordan may be short-lived. because there's going to be a lot of dislocations that can put the question of this of the survival of my nation at (00:39:01) stake. You hear from Jane Larson? Iraq has provided an important check and balance against the Israeli military machine in the region. But provided this conflict could be resolved peacefully. How can the security of the gulf the Gulf States and other Regional players be secured in the aftermath? I think that is a good question. (00:39:31) We have to strike a balance between the requirements. (00:39:37) of (00:39:39) balance of power between in the region at the same time the requirements of that the concerns putting at peace and at ease the concerns of various countries that now feel Iraq is a threat. the primary concern of the Cal Gulf Nations Saudi Arabia and Kuwait is that here's a superpower now Iraq that has post showed itself in aggression Against One. And they cannot see themselves as sustaining a cunt in a continued. The continuance of such a superpower at the board that they would like to see that power destroyed. In self-defense it says it is natural Maybe. to be able (00:40:43) to (00:40:45) put to rest the concerns of the gulf countries to put to rest also the concerns of the Israelis about nuclear weapons about chemical weapons and biological that Iraq has to put to put to rest the concerns maybe of the syrians with David Iraq is the Assyrians and their lackeys do have there. (00:41:10) several axes to (00:41:11) grind it seems to me. Goes to show that we need a global approach. one (00:41:28) that (00:41:29) deals with the issue at hand. Araki aggression against Kuwait and the (00:41:35) need to resolve (00:41:36) it. Two without making any shifts in the balance of power. In favor, either of Iran or Iraq or Israel or against Israel? to maybe at the International Conference on the Middle East maybe an idea that was proposed. (00:42:03) some weeks ago by President (00:42:06) Gorbachev and supported by by the French this is an idea (00:42:15) that (00:42:17) It seems to me (00:42:19) needs to be looked into once the the immediate causes of the (00:42:23) problem. And that is the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait is dealt with (00:42:30) but when we cannot in effect we cannot resolve. The problem the concerns of the Saudis by creating concerns for others. For example the power of Iraq as I mentioned Iraq as a nation not Iraq and Saddam Hussein and that power is a requirement for stability until such a time like it like it was the balance of Terror that existed between the United States and the Soviet Union for many many years. And that was what preserve peace between these two pursuit of two superpowers (00:43:10) until such a time when they could resolve their (00:43:13) problems in the same manner seems to me that balance is required until such a time when peace is brought about that involves the Arabs and Israelis it also puts in to check. (00:43:26) And that is a (00:43:26) requirement in to check the basic causes of instability the prediction the poor the fundamental is the danger of researching radicalism out of Iran if Iraq is weakened or destroyed. So these are the elements. I really do not we do not have led formula for how to go to program and approach but we believe that in essence we need to apply ourselves to to the to the set of problems that we have in the region and eventually Maybe (00:44:08) We can once we apply ourselves we can find the modalities of dealing with them in the long term. (00:44:17) A lot of psychology is (00:44:19) involved. I'm afraid it is like that we have to put ourselves in the frame of mind of the Iraqis. As well as of the kuwaitis as well as of the (00:44:30) Saudis. And it seems to me number one. Iraq realises that maybe a (00:44:42) bit more than it choose. It could chew a bit more that we could Digest. And number two (00:44:51) the other protagonist in the (00:44:52) Gulf the qualities and the Saudis realize there's a growing realization. of the dangers of the devastating effects of War (00:45:06) seems to me that although (00:45:09) rhetoric continues to be (00:45:12) hard hardened. There is a sinking (00:45:16) realization that there is a need to (00:45:20) test the care of the other day, maybe two weeks ago if you recall the Saudi defense minister. Let's poke avocado involving substantive concessions on the part of Kuwait. He spoke of a carrot that involved maybe ceding territory the islands and so on to Iraq. We don't think that is the right approach and it's unnecessary. but we have to we cannot bring a man like Saddam Hussein little bit as what he did to his knees unless we are willing (00:46:01) to launch War (00:46:03) at what price the man is (00:46:06) willing to go to war and is willing to be (00:46:08) extremely destructive and he is got capabilities of Destruction. This country does have (00:46:13) capabilities of Destruction also, (00:46:16) so has the alliance He is willing to go all the way tour. But at the same time he has I think we think in (00:46:29) Jordan (00:46:30) growing realization that he could not sustain. (00:46:40) The occupation and annexation of Kuwait peacefully (00:46:44) so that here are the elements. That our daughter mind that exist for the preparation of that carrot carrot not of substance but of for a carrot involving sitting and negotiating like for example, one of the thoughts that any one of us could have is why not negotiate after withdrawal. And this is just a thought after we draw the concerns in the Grievances of the Iraq is concerning their border the islands and so on and the world Court. add at The Hague or in arbitration there are so many ways of we have the world has tested the peaceful option in the past. And so many many ways. None of them have been so far looked into at this time and in all fairness to our region, we need to look into them. Maybe they are not maybe it will not work, but we have to at least give it a try as to what type of stick. I differentiate between Iraq as a nation. and Iraq as a regime Under no circumstance. Should there be? An attempt to use this crisis and to launch a war to serve the interests of some parties to destroy Iraq. Because here I must refer to Israel Israel at this time would like to see Iraq as a credible power in the region destroyed because for the simple reason that it is it is a competitor to the power of Israel and as such poses that kind of challenge of the balance. And the nurse no circumstance should the power of Iraq be allowed to be destroyed because it is a power essentially and I'm speaking about Iraq and not the president of Iraq. Essentially. This is a power that that is necessary ingredient for stability in the region. Otherwise with Iraq out. You will see that researching power of Iran once again, and once again the worry of the United States of fundamentalism out of Iran (00:49:22) taking over all the oil in the (00:49:25) Gulf We have a question now from Matthew Ambassador. I think you partially answered my question but not totally so in the worst case (00:49:37) scenario if all out (00:49:40) war is declared and here at eventually of this defeated. What do you see the ultimate consequences would be for the Middle East in (00:49:50) general? Become a start thinking of the devastation of War. Nothing terms of the Firepower that exists among the protagonists but of the (00:50:05) potential. Continuum of (00:50:09) conflict that this That this war will create so that a war (00:50:17) devastating as it may be. Will only trigger for a longer period of time the worst in radicalism and fundamentalism in the region, and I don't think that then Estates. As it stands up for four principles of freedom and as recently as a stands up also for its interest in oil and the free flow of oil. I don't think that there are states or the West would want to keep a tank. Beside each oil well to protect against terrorism and against rise of the worst kind of radicals. I claim that Pandora's Box will be open. And that Pandora's Box in the Middle East is full of the worst. Kind of scorpions and snakes who claim that they are. They see what is right. They that God is on their side they are. Totally out of sync with the realities. Of our own people of the needs of development. They pose a challenge and they are indeed in my to my mind. They are almost begging for a war because it will give them the reason that it will release. That ability to go on the Rampage for many many years and this is the worst danger devastating as it may be that wall. Well, of course, can you imagine what will happen to always happen to people and so on but that will only be the beginning (00:52:06) one more question question from our Shah, Mohan essien (00:52:16) Does that happen Dune was the host at a luncheon some years ago at which mr. Rudy boschwitz our former Senator persil Senator, of course, he was chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee at the time and David Newton was the appointed ambassador to Baghdad. And after this was before the confirmation in the Senate there was a luncheon at which Rudy at the appropriate time. As this question said when is Iraq ready to recognize Israel? And does that who's not Deputy foreign minister in Baghdad said that if Israel's neighbors can come to an agreement who share a border with Israel. We will join (00:52:52) is it possible (00:52:54) now? To look for the head of the dog that's buried elsewhere from Kuwait and to say is this the time to have the Bold discussion and whether or not touch the total Saints have people this issue since Saddam is taking the case of PLO. And since the PLO is negotiating with the it's a state of Israel recognizing it. What would be wrong if Saddam Hussein recognize Israel now and brought stability to the Eastern flank of the Arab world by joining forces with Egypt and to allow the nations in between to fit in their proper context isn't this the time to look at where the origin of the problems are and to show the pragmatism you have any idea whether such a topic has even remotely been discussed by the to her chains encourage them. Yeah, I think essentially the other (00:53:47) position on the question of peace between the Palestinian nation and the Israeli nation in Palestinians and (00:53:56) Israel that question of the Arab attitude on this issue has been dealt with at the first summit conference. essentially what the Arabs have said it is up to the PLO to make a decision on peace and whatever the PLO accepts we are committed as Arabs and that includes by the way, Iraq, we are committed to support. In the PLO as you recall about 2 years back recognized Israel. Renounce terrorism accepted the resolution 242 and accepted in principle. Essentially. That is the most important thing the two-state solution. Recognize that Palestine is a land that is contested between the Jews and the Palestinians Jewish nationalist expressed in Israel. And Palestinian nationalism. (00:55:00) Naturally that was always there (00:55:03) for the first time the PLO (00:55:05) accepted the two-state solution (00:55:08) recognized Israel expressed the wish to sit and negotiate directly with Israel. The Arabs (00:55:16) and I think including Saddam (00:55:18) Hussein in many instances. The president of Iraq has expressed his support for whatever action below takes the Arabs have supported this new approach of the PLO. It is said it is indeed an eye-opener even as to why Israel which has this opportunity for peace. With the Palestinians hides behind various claims that these are terrorists are we not going to talk to them? They are the hijackers (00:55:54) on planes they kill children and so on (00:55:57) this world is not Israelis know that this world is not made up of angels. There are so many if you feel a lot of people feel that Saddam Hussein is a terrible person. There are so many Saddam Hussein's in this world. When the Israeli leadership speaks of terrorism and not insistence on not dealing with terrorism. It is sad and it is an eye-opener also that mr. Shamir the present prime minister (00:56:26) of Israel (00:56:27) was the terrorist par excellence in Palestine before the creation of the state of Israel. He was the leader of the stern gang. They have a long history of terrorism. So without name calling the important thing is to sit and grab this opportunity for peace. Israel and its concerns and many Israelis indeed do have legitimate concerns about the security these concerns need to be addressed. These are legitimate concerns other Israelis the hardliners particularly the present government hide behind these concerns too hard and put their position to reject a (00:57:11) peaceful solution (00:57:13) seems to me that the way to go about resolving. This problem is terrorists are not terrorists. Let us not look back at the past let the Palestinians and Israeli sit together. And accept each other eventually and give each other the assurances that both of them may legitimately require and bring about the peace between them that has been innocent and Essence in answer to your question has been supported by all the Arabs including by Iraq.