(00:00:05) Temperatures in the low 50s and upper 40s around the region this morning when I came into the office and it's just not going to get much warmer than that. I know it. Well, I hope we'll get a nice long spell of warm Autumn like we did last year. I oh I'm all for it. Remember being outside enjoying it late into October. But anyway, we're going to talk a little bit about water today with Joe real Cillian from the freshwater Foundation you turn on the tap and have a drink of water or take a shower. It's just a reflex action and and you never even think about it unless of course something happens and you find out that the water is contaminated that is actually a very serious problem facing a growing number of people around the nation these days and in our region as well. And that is our subject with Joe resilient today will be opening the telephone lines for your questions as we continue the conversation Joe has been here before he is president of the freshwater Foundation, which is out on Lake Minnetonka. Is it not? Yes, that's correct. And what briefly are some of your activities out (00:01:09) there. Well, I'll do a quick review of the freshwater Foundation of you as you know was formed in 1969 and the primary concern at that time was what I classify as Green Lakes, you know, we were seeing changes occurring in our surface water and we didn't understand why and so the foundation was formed primarily to raise funds to do research and information education programs around lakes and Lake water most specifically in the state of Minnesota. Well, they began initially by building the gray freshwater biological Institute is a research laboratory and that facility now has over 70 scientists and a annual operating budget. Nearing three million dollars. So it's doing a good job in doing good work nationally not just the state of Minnesota nationally, but what happened in the interim was it in the mid-70s? We began to discover that the critical issue was not our surface water. The critical issue was groundwater as I explained in Minnesota. We look upon Minnesota as a water Rich State because we have 12,000 Lakes. But the truth is that we recreation in those Lakes. We swim we fish we boat we drink groundwater and we until just recently we have had no legislation managing a controlling the use or the protection of groundwater. And in the late 70s, we began to realize that because of our efforts nationally to protect our surface water. We were doing some pretty dumb things to our groundwater (00:02:43) like what for example (00:02:44) well in 1968, we passed the 202208 water quality act which we always refer to The official swimmable act that was the Act was said by 1983 all Waters. The United States would be feasible and swimmable. Now that's pretty stupid to begin with because not all Waters ever were official and swimmable and couldn't be but it was, you know, nice heady idea out of Washington DC and what it really said was no longer can anyone in discriminately dump materials in our surface water? Okay. They didn't say you couldn't create hazardous or toxic material. They just said you couldn't dump it on our surface water. So we put it in the only other logical place. We buried it and put it in our groundwater. So the fact that become a piece of enabling legislation that enabled us to contaminate our groundwater (00:03:29) Supply and we're sort of paying the price for that and have been ever since we're (00:03:32) just now beginning to realize what the price is or that that that that price really occurs and across the United States right now the most critical issue with two most critical issues are leaking underground storage tanks petroleum storage tanks and the other is the impact of agricultural practices. On groundwater. And so that's what most of the discussion is about. Well, when we saw this coming down the road in the late 70s, then we retooled the information education and the research at The Institute to focus primarily on groundwater and and Reclamation maintenance of groundwater supplies. And now we're starting on Reclamation of groundwater supplies, Michigan, for example in the state of Michigan 64 out of 83 Counties have groundwater contamination in excess of usable levels. So they're now going to a totally surface apply from the Great Lakes. Our contention is you can't afford to write off an entire stage groundwater Supply. We have to come up with some technology to clean that up and that's part of the part of what the research is focused on you. Ask the question what's new at the foundation three things. First of all, we've just helped form a national health and environment network with the Minnesota Medical Association the u.s. Medical association Minnesota Department of Health. We have representatives from every state in the nation and what they're trying to do is develop and Information Network through the medical community that makes the doctors more predictive than they have been traditionally where they were placed in a reactive role. You wait till something happens and try to figure out what happened and that's just getting started a newsletter will be initiated very shortly and editors been hired and that's the first half of the of the effort the second half then will be to translate that information to the general public to help them understand the real impact of environmental contamination because the principal impact is Health. We're not terribly concerned about the environment. I guess I say, we really can't afford. Word worry about the environment. You can only afford to worry about the environment when you are in a flush Society where you have extra dollars. It's way too high up on the priority list. What we're concerned about is the health of people which is a direct impact of a contaminated environment that goes a lot higher up on the priority list. (00:06:03) So Joe resilient is in the Studio's today or talking about freshwater matters of various kinds groundwater being a major concern now, and if you have a question why we certainly welcome your call the phone number in the Minneapolis st. Paul area is 2276 thousand 2276 thousand in the Twin Cities elsewhere within the state of Minnesota. Our toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 hundred six, five two nine seven zero zero, and if you are in one of the surrounding states, you can call us directly area code 612 2276 thousand. We were talking just a moment before while Mark was reading the news about the taste of drinking water and I made the observation as a reasonably long time st. Paul resident that it definitely does taste better than it did say 15 years ago, or maybe I've just gotten used to it. And I said that the water in Duluth of course is always very tasty go up to Luther's up the dfl State Convention of broadcasting from there in June and I was reminded boy, that really does taste good how how big a factor is tasting and what concerned we have about that. (00:07:17) There are three ways that we classify water. You can do it a lot of ways but we classify it as safe usable and acceptable now, there's pure and pristine and all of those but those are pretty darn subjective and it's awfully hard to determine. I'm not sure there is such a thing as pure water. We have to remember the waters Mother Nature sewer system. It's not supposed to be clean. It ends up in everything ends up in water. It's really supposed to stay in Balance Safe. Water means that it meets. Minimal standards set by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of Health for Safe Drinking standards for people and that's all it means. It doesn't mean that you're going to like it. It doesn't mean that it's that it's pure or that it's has no contaminants in it. It means that it's below safe levels usable water means that that water can be used for some process by Society water and sewage treatment plant is usable. It's not safe to drink it's not potable, but it's usable water the third probably most critical criteria is acceptable because it make any difference what these other standards are. The real issue is is the water of a quality that's acceptable to people and a great each year twice usually in August in the Twin City area. For example, the water is established as safe by both the ball and Minnesota and Minneapolis water department, but it smells bad people. I'm playing and everything. That's no longer acceptable the real social issue in the United States today is that in the United States not a single water manager and he placed the United States can assure you that they will have and be able to maintain an acceptable water supply five years down the road. (00:09:03) Well, how about in Duluth (00:09:05) Duluth is a classic example. It's a beautiful water supply coming out of Lake Superior. The only problem they've had is some some minimal residual from the taconite tailings that what in the lake now, let's Tack and I tailings were deemed as being a specialist like and it was determined got to keep this out of the water supply. The only technique they've been been successful with and taking those out is to use a an aluminum compound Alum put that in and it filters out the the attack night tailings. So now the water is technically safe for consumption because the tail Arne in anymore. However, most recent research seems to establish that the principal cause of Alzheimer's disease is aluminum (00:09:50) so Alum comes from (00:09:52) aluminum. And so the one thing they're putting in the water to keep the taconite tailings out is the one thing that it's not it's not absolutely confirmed yet. But the one thing the principal criteria that appears to cause a increases in Alzheimer's disease to water supply now may or may not be acceptable. (00:10:13) Hmm. I wonder when we'll know about that for (00:10:16) well a research being what it is, you know, it's going to be three or four years before you get some real confirmation or maybe more confirmation that fact but more and more articles are being written on that now so there is a it started out in in the Philippines. I think it has a high box. I'd soil lot aluminum in it and they have the highest incidence of Alzheimer's disease. So they were looking to see why and found that correlation. (00:10:39) Let's get some listeners on the line with questions here. We're talking about fresh water. Jill resilient and you're on first go ahead, please. Well, my concerns are how do you motivate people to conserve on the use of water from several standpoints? We see all the information that Great Lakes are an all-time high level like Pulaski is flooding out peoples who built in a floodplain and I'm a single homeowner and I don't water my yarder garden and I don't happen to do laundry here, but I have to pay a minimum when it comes to water and sewage and if I use less than the minimum nothing is much accomplished and my second concern is the recent reports that some of the same parasites like yo, the classical one is st. Petersburg in Russia that local populace is is immune to the thing but visitors Come and they get diarrhea from the parasites that are in the water supply and I've been hearing reports that these things are showing up in the Boundary Waters. (00:11:55) Okay, there are three or four points. Let's take take them as we go along. First of all, how do you conserve water the two basic ways to do it one is by cost and the other is by legislation. Arizona has passed the first Statewide water plan that established that by the year 2010 State Arizona. They will reduce their water use by one-third of the amount that they're using today and they're going to meet her it and say okay. We don't care how you use it or what you use it for it is all you get to use today and you decide how you want to use it. The other way to do it is to enable the price like we did with gasoline enable the price to accelerate until to the point where we decide it's cheaper to not use water than it is to pay the price. We have to keep in mind that water in the United States has always been a free commodity. We've never paid for water. We've always paid for service but water at the sources free and now For the first time there are instances starting with South Dakota where they talk about charging for water at the source and adding that as a surtax on to the water supply the the water as a free resource is based upon a surplus commodity. We do not have a surplus commodity today of drinkable water potable water. We have surpluses as he said in Lake Pulaski it in the Great Lakes and some surface waters, but those are not the drinking water supply. Those are fast becoming a shortage as a shortage occurs. Suddenly. They became more become more valuable and you have the choice. I say you're going to have the choice of 1990s either reduce reuse the choice is yours. You're going to cut back or recycle and you get to make that decision third question you asked was about the incidence of new diseases are new contaminations. You always have the problem of a population move whether it's a visitor of What Not not being accustomed to the water and having Negative effects the sulfite level down in the South Eastern South Western part of our state is such that investors come they get what we call the Kansas Quick steps, you know, because their system has to get used to it. What's happening in The Boundary Waters canoe area. These talking about is a new or an old but a now Universal contamination called Giardia and it's a parasite that is passed through animal fetus and is now so Universal across the United States that you should never drink untreated water and he placed an ad States Boundary Water in Alaska and he place now, you'll see signs that say don't drink the water before you boil it (00:14:39) first. Is that right? Because I'd always heard that wasn't things people really liked about the BW say just go up there and don't you go in the (00:14:45) water and now I still I guess because I'm a traditionalist. I still got the middle of the lake can drop a canoe paddle and bring it up and drink the water off and everything, but once you get to the show, One should not just go out and dip a bucket of water on the shoreline and come back and say gee I'm up here. Therefore this is clean. That's no longer the (00:15:02) case. Here's another listener with a question. Go ahead you're on with Jill resilient. Yes. I have two questions one. Why do we allow swaps to be drained when they act as an aqua fire and a sponge to soak up water and to if trying to get rid of the taste and odor is and City Water you see it. I've put an ad on filter to my tap water and then you find out that the charcoal which is supposed to remove the back are the odors and that actually is a breeding ground for bacteria. Is this true and what can you do? What can you reasonably believe on these add-ons? (00:15:42) Okay good. Those are two very good questions. First of all, let's talk about why our swamps drain. The reason swamps are drained as because we've erroneously no this is my opinion. We've erroneously established swamps as being And rather than being water and so farmers are taxed for swamps as if they were land. Well if it's a if it's taxed as land he treats it as land and he then tries to drain it and and produce off of it sufficient to pay the taxes. We don't charge him. We don't tax him for a lake. We need to change our whole attitude towards swamps and they are marshes and accept the fact that they are a very integral part of this whole water system and and not only tax them differently, but subsidize the person that has the swamp to keep it there if the if you have a ring of marshes around your city, especially a small town out in the country. Those are things to keep the city from being flooded. Well, then take part of the money usually used for flood control and subsidize the farmer to keep them out there. And that's a lot easier than putting a channel through which then floods the next city which then has to put another you know, and adds on to problem but it's an attitude change that says this it is worthwhile having that there and Person should be subsidized to have it there when you pay them directly or indirectly by reducing his taxes. It's important to keep that as as a unit. Secondly the whole question of filters. First thing one needs to keep in mind about filters. Is that filters do one thing and one thing only they filter it solder supposed to do. So the first thing you have to ask if you decide whether to put on a filter is what's in my water supply and is it filterable if you check your water supply and there's something in that you want to get out and it is filterable then by all means you put a filter on and that solves the problem. His concern is he said in the city and is concerned about bacteria building up in the charcoal? Yeah. Well that normally will not happen in a city because the city already is chlorinated the water and what you're doing by putting a filter on in the city is you're using it to take the chlorination out of the water. So the chlorination chlorine builds up in the filter that keeps a bacteria from growing and technically the city is the only place that you can use a charcoal filter. You shouldn't use a charcoal filter out in the country on a well that is not chlorinated because or if you do you have to watch very carefully because of bacteria buildup in the in the (00:18:06) charcoal what are some things that are in water and which of these might want to get out with a filter. (00:18:14) The reason we're all excited about drinking water supplies now is because we're just beginning to ask the proper questions. You see traditionally when we tested water and when the Department of Health is required and it required to test the water supply regularly on a regular basis and everything they were testing for coliform bacteria and then later on because the buildups of nitrates they start testing for nitrates coliform bacteria are an indicator of bacteria in the water if there are no coliform bacteria than they've killed everything if there is a just if there are coliform or any other bacteria, they just add more Or form or chlorine to kill it. What we're finding out now is that there are volatile organic compounds industrial chemicals agricultural chemicals and Trace metals that weren't even being tested for in those other tests. So six almost six years ago now, I guess the state of Minnesota said, okay, we have to test to find out if there is any indication of contaminations in the state water supply and they test at eighteen hundred and three Wells and ever misspelling state of Minnesota and what they find out they found out that a hundred and fifty Wells were contaminated 20 Wells were shut 24 Wells were shutdown in 17 cities for complete systems were shut down. Snug s77 complete systems were shut down. It was the first time the question was ever asked. And so now we're saying we need to test for those other things that are there besides coliform and according to Environmental Protection Agency today. They say that 30 percent of all of the drinking supplies in the United States cities. In and all that are tested 30% they found small concentrations of chemicals. Now most of those that concentration is not large enough to make a difference but most of those chemicals are what we call bioaccumulates so they don't go away. They just keep building up (00:20:15) and at some point they might be (00:20:16) eventually they get the part with the all you have keep testing and then you shut it down or you find some way to clean them up the same time. They say that 66% 2/3 of all rural wells in the United States are contaminated by at least one contaminant don't meet standards by at least one contamination. So technically then by those rules two-thirds of all the rural Wells the United States ought to be shut down. (00:20:40) Wow. Well, of course there was a big article in the paper here not too many weeks ago about contamination and drinking wells in Minnesota and one of the reasons again (00:20:50) that they're occurring in Minnesota's because we're just starting to ask the question. Once we found out the contamination the city Wells the legislature passed a law that said, okay now go test all of the Non City Group Wells, you know Wells that that took care of a restaurant or a motel or a small group of community, you know, like around a lake or something and then the last legislation they passed ones that okay. Now we have to start a search or a test of all of the rural wells in the state of Minnesota. (00:21:23) And that's where all of this is turned up (00:21:25) and it's an interesting if we have a minute you want to know why did all of this happen our rules broke down on us you see again? The 208 water quality act said that you can't dump anything. It said further that any chemicals that you use have to have a no more than 60 day Half-Life which means they have to disappear within a hundred twenty days on the surface of the ground and so all of our agricultural chemicals. Meet those meet those standards and they break down within a hundred twenty days. The problem is that in some soils like Sandy soils and in the Limestone karst areas the water moves through faster than that and takes the chemical with it those organisms that break those chemicals down our aerobic organisms organisms that require oxygen and the water takes those chemicals through the top 12 inches of soil down out of the oxygen before they get completely broken down there now anaerobic which I mean they're now bio accumulate which means that they'll never break down because those bacteria below are anaerobic and they don't know how to clean them up and they're in the water. So it just gets in the water goes down in Supply and starts building up and so over a period of time you just build a higher and higher and higher concentration and that's what's happening (00:22:39) talking with Joe resilient today president of the freshwater Foundation. We have some listeners on the line and some lines available. So if you have a question or a comment about this Rather important subject. You're certainly welcome to call us two to seven six thousand in the Twin Cities area and one 865 29700 in other parts of Minnesota. Go ahead please you're next. Yes. I have a question in it and it deals with the area that is all west of Anoka towards st. Cloud where the irrigation is something fierce many of the course escaped from the metro area and in selected an area out in the in the countryside and build a home and of course, we're dependent upon well water. We've sunk our wells and as the irrigation season starts primarily for the potato area. We find our pressure decreasing to the point of where the well is almost inoperable. I think I'd like to have your guests address this problem and how we can control the use of irrigation. in indifference to the homeowner and also the use of things such as paraquat where they kill the plants in a given time to prevent its growth and what effect it might have on Wells which are probably not shallow, but a hundred and twenty two hundred and fifty feet in (00:24:08) depth Okay, I think there are two things that we need to keep in mind. First of all most of the irrigation in Minnesota is in that sandy sandy loam area it runs as you said across through the Anoka area, which is the recharge area for the Twin Cities aquifer for the for the aquifer and of the Twin Cities that we use is that major one that everybody's so proud of that gets recharged Anoka from st. Cloud on West is What's called the Bonanza Valley and that's the original Sandy outfall of the lake exit that goes all the way up it to (00:24:48) Winnipeg prehistorically. (00:24:50) Yes. Both of these are you know, there's a good news and a bad news. The reason those are good irrigation areas is because there is such a quick recharge of those areas recharge from rainfall of that ground water. So there's always a good ground water supply the Bad news is that any time you have a quick recharge. You bring all the chemicals with it the the Sandy area from st. Cloud out to Morris is one of the area's that's being studied by the state of Minnesota in the Twin Cities in a new five-year study to determine how how the water moves through how the chemicals move through the land because out in that area. They're finding contamination as low as 90 feet. So when you talk about shallow Wells don't really have shallow Wells are up in the Northern State part of the state. That's 15 feet. But before you get to the big the big rock bass down in here a hundred foot. Well is not what I consider a deep. Well, that's a relatively you know, that in itself is a relatively shallow well and can be can be contaminated as easy as it can be recharged one of his concerns. You mentioned was the fact that when they're irrigating they draw down their own Wells that the about the only law we have in the state of Minnesota for irrigation is that an irrigator must get a permit to put in that well, and he gets a permit to In that well, but if anyone can can show cause why that irrigation is having a negative impact on the neighbor they can shut him down. So you have the right if you are losing your water supply to protest to the Department of Natural Resources, and they will make a check to find out if his permit needs to be rescinded. There is a very Major Impact of irrigation on groundwater supplies, especially in those areas where the words dependent upon recharge and and you do have some recourse and you need to step into (00:26:48) it. Well if that's where the Twin Cities aquifer is recharged, how safe is how good is the water in the Twin (00:26:53) Cities? Well, the only major problem we have with the Twin City aquifer right now, you know is under st. Louis is the st. Louis Park with the creosote and they're trying to take that out and clean it out. The rest of it is relatively is relatively clean and safe as long as because Too slow. It's a slow recharge. But I do think we need to be very careful about the type of activities that occur up in the Anoka area because that's also one of the areas where there are a number of contamination sites industrial contamination sites. That's why the state is concerned about it. That's why we've become involved in trying to do some some groundwater cleanup technology using microorganisms. What we're trying to do is teach microorganisms to either either aerobic microorganisms to hold their breath and get down a little lower to clean up some of those contaminants or to try to find anaerobic microorganisms that are conducive to those kind of chemicals and retrain their eating habits so that we can clean those contaminations up before they get into the water supply (00:28:02) bad is the creosote situation was in st. Louis Park. I guess it would have had an even bigger impact if it had been in Anoka (00:28:08) wouldn't it well, Not necessarily. It just did was just take a longer time getting down there because that's a Jordan prayer to Shane aquifer and it goes from a bowl all the way down to Afton Alps up to Anoka out to Lake middle of Lake Minnetonka and that's this whole single aquifer and it just drains down in what happens over in in in St. Louis Park and it's interesting to understand how that works. There's very little water movement in an aquifer the principal cause of currents in an aquifer is high pressure pumping. So every time they have every time it opened a new well and they pump they draw the contaminant to that well until it got there and then they say we got to shut them down drone over here and all they're doing just moving that around. So now what they're doing is they're putting in Wells to pump the water up and take it out of the take that contaminate out and then filter the contaminant out of the water critical issue course is what are you with water if you then take it use it, that's fine. But you are drawing down the aquifer in the process you you know, you're mining that aquifer (00:29:09) so We have a lot of people with questions. Let's get to the mirror. Your next go ahead Joe resilient is listening. Yeah, I know and I would like to know whether it's it pays off to buy water in a grocery store. How good is this water? Actually and other test reports available about the water quality. How good is it compared to tap water? For example. (00:29:32) Well, first of all water in a grocery store comes under the Food and Drug Administration, so it has to be tested and has to be approved. So you at least know that water in the grocery store is being monitored and inspected and cleaned. So it's safe to drink next question is whether you like it or whether you you you know, you want to drink it for tonight by water. I'm buy it for special purpose. One thing I do is I am an amateur winemaker and we use water to make a wine because we like one that has a more subtle taste than the one we have at home. (00:30:06) So it's really just a matter of taste of preference, isn't it? If you buy bottled water (00:30:12) unless you have a an individual well, unless you have an individual. Well that has never been tested or never been monitored or isn't being checked. There's no way of your knowing whether that well is where that water quality is acceptable or not. Unless you go have a check. (00:30:29) Okay, here's another caller with a question here on the air now. Hello say I just tuned in so you may have talked about this question. But what I'd like to ask is how effective are the various kinds of distillers and also the charcoal filters for purifying drinking water. We write we did talk about that a little bit. But Joe (00:30:46) Gorga, the carbon block filters are I think very efficient and taking out the contaminants in the water or those things that need to be filtered out as long as it's as we said as long as it's on a Municipal Water Supply shouldn't be used on a row water supply. A lot of people now are going to distillers and distillation is a nice process what it does. Is it evaporates off, but you got to keep in mind that that there are some things that go with the water evaporated to heavy metals for example move with it. So it doesn't mean that just because you've distilled your water that water is perfectly safe. We do. Maybe I should make a pitch here the freshwater society and they can call their by calling 4718407471884070 K or they can write at 2500 Shady Wood Road post office box 90 Navarre nav as in Victor arra, Navarre, Minnesota 55392 We have a series of brochures that you can get one free up by just calling and asking riding asking to send you a brochure. One of them is on water filters and it explains what water filters do and how they work and the process and gives you some materials and everything. One of them is understanding your shoreline. What I'm is on household chemicals. The most recent one is on agricultural chemicals a very good one done by the Department of Health and the PCA and then we have some bigger bigger brochures and and journals and the special reports and everything and nothing else just call and say send me out your list of Publications that you have that are available and that will help give a lot of this information. (00:32:43) Okay. That phone number is four seven one eight 407 and that street address is kind of a long one 2500 Shady Oak. She would Shady wood Shady Wood Road. See out of Ghana wrong are trying to send in. PO Box 1990 Navarre and the zip is 55392. That's right. All right. Well see I wrote pretty fast you did you only just got a little bit of it wrong. Not too bad. Here's our next listener. Go ahead please Joe resilient is listening today. All right, thank you for that information question brought up by your response to another question on the charcoal filters. Probably guess people's Duluth don't have too much experience with water treatment systems because we simply don't need it the lake we've never needed it before now new. Well, it's down 203 feet broiling or with iron in it at a water treatment system installed with string and an excellent job, but this is chiefly rozum with some charcoal never occurred to me that we're going to have a problem of clicking bacteria Etc. It does arise that. Also. I can't answer that question. (00:33:57) I don't know we can check find out for you. If you'll call in that four seven one eight 407 will have him check and find out for you. (00:34:06) All right, and thank you for your call will move on to you next. Hello. Good morning. I live in st. Paul and there's very little information in the public library about water softeners and conditioners and I'm wondering what information your guests can share on the relative effectiveness of both and some general consumer cost information. (00:34:27) No, I'm sorry. I don't have any information on water softeners of water softeners are designed specifically to take the the iron to take the calcium and and those type of materials out of the water which really don't have any impact on the drinking acceptability of the water. All that does is is is enhance its its texture And so we don't get involved in those tall. I have one, you know because where I live if you don't have a water softener you your Machinery goes all the pots of darn quick your pipes all plug up and everything else but a water softener, you should not necessarily be assumed as an acceptable alternative for assuring put ability of water drinkable water. (00:35:23) Okay. We'll move on to another caller then with a question. Hi, you're on go ahead please. Yes, I recently purchased a home and did a well test in we received the ten or twelve parts per million on the nitrate and I understand the federal standard is 10 parts. Our youngest child is four and a half and wondered whether or not this is a thing to be particularly concerned about also. Is there a way to get a test that would cover a broad spectrum of the Agricultural chemicals. It's - Anything basically have to be tested for separately. And then finally, what about reverse osmosis? Is that a effective screen for these types of (00:36:06) chemicals? Yeah. Alright first part of the question is on the 12 parts of the nitrates and the four and a half year old child. You probably won't have or shouldn't have any concern about and his concern is the the shortage of nitrogen that they have with infants. If I mean shortage of oxygen with infants, if you have too much, they're exposed to Too Much nitrites and it's called Blue baby's oxygen deficiency. There should be no problem with that but but one should keep in mind that there's a new phenomenon now that the medical community is still trying to understand called Nitro. So where the the nitrates have a negative reaction in the stomach of the human and cause stomach cancer. So I think it's it's not something that you should disregard. I it's not something I think that you should it's not something you should throw your hands up in the air about and say, oh my goodness just be aware of the fact that there is some potential that that nitrogen nitrates and nitrites do cause cancer (00:37:06) part 2 was about whether there is a single test that will check for all the different kinds of (00:37:12) values. There are there are testing and I didn't bring that information with me again. If you will call the freshwater society and ask them their our Laboratories in the Twin City area that will do broad-spectrum test cost a little money. And that's one of the problems we have is that it comes it costs almost 200 and 200 dollars to get a broad spectrum test of all Agricultural and Industrial chemicals first time. Well, I guess I would think it would be well worth it myself one of the things that we just received funding for from the ledge. Lady Commission on Minnesota researchers of the next two years is to try to develop a what I call a quick and dirty cheaper test because we've discovered that in nearly 90 percent of all of the chemicals that were concerned about especially agricultural chemicals. There's one particular element that is representative in all of them. And so we're trying to develop a test. We're going to try to develop a test that will spot that one element. If you see that then you know, there's a possibility and then you go on and have the more expensive (00:38:15) tests and part 3 was about reverse (00:38:18) osmosis we oh yes reverse osmosis the primary use for reverse osmosis is to take salt. What is it? What it is is a very very fine screen and you force the water through the screen and you leave the residuals back on the other side and reverse osmosis is the technique developed to to take water salt out of salt water to make it drinkable. They used to that always by by evaporation by distillation that got to be too expensive so they developed this. Reverse osmosis technique and I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know what else goes out. When when the reverse osmosis. I do think it takes out Metals Trace Metals, but I don't know that would be something that would be fun for us to find out. I think I'm gonna put that down to something for us to search and find (00:39:04) out. All right, as you take a note. Let's move on to another listener. I might mention that we do have some lines available again 2276 thousand if you have a question for Jill Rosalyn and we might be able to get you on the earth and with the amount of time we have left. Hello you're on now. Yes. Thank you very much. I'd like to congratulate your radio program and your guests for making people aware of our water and I think you're doing an absolutely magnificent job and I just have one question and it has to do, you know if I may move laterally and then it down to the southwestern part of the United States the Texas area and I understand that there's quite a water problem down there and I wonder if you could just comment about that why and you know, what? Future might be okay. Yeah good (00:39:51) question. Oh, thank you for that because that's one of my favorite stories in 1886. A man named John Wesley Powell a geologist was contracted by the United States to go do a study of the western part of the United States and give a report bank and he reported back in 86 that the southwestern part of the United States would never be able to support any significant population. We've spent a hundred years proving him. Right and what we've done is we've taken the southwestern part of the United States and built a population down there at the point that it in no way can naturally support that population. So what you have technically if you think about it from from Anaheim from Disneyland South all the way over to almost West Texas is you have a totally artificial environment. You have a desert that we've used all kinds of techniques to make Bloom and we're now trying to support a population that significantly exceeds the natural resources of that area. Now. There's nothing there's nothing particularly wrong with that. Japan is the same way but you've got to accept the fact that that is not a natural environment and it's going to make significant impacts on every place else to be able to support that it's going to be more costly to support it and you can't live the same way in Phoenix that you live in Minneapolis. And that's what Arizona just figured out when they passed this comprehensive water policy that said we're going to be water self-sufficient what they really said when they said that is we're not going to have Agriculture and Phoenix after the year 2010. We can't afford people in agriculture. We will not have any industry that requires a significant amount of water like a brewery like steel or anything like that. Will primarily have high people intensive industry and our primary resource will be people and and people support (00:41:51) systems. All right. Well, I could ask a couple of follow-up questions on that but I'll resist and move on to another listener question. Okay. Hello. You're on next? Yep. I live in South Minneapolis here. And at least I have the understanding that a lot of the water we consume or drink comes from the Mississippi River and it occurs to me that or at least I have always felt myself to be naive and believing that a lot of organic and inorganic chemicals at some point in time. Don't pass down that River from whatever Source either being dumped into the river or as part of the Watershed that the river carries naturally down and putting two and two together. I think about the fact that I'm sure that not all of these chemicals at least the toxic chemicals or the carcinogen elements that are in these chemicals can possibly be all identified and tested and my question I guess is How do you think they're the Machinery is moving towards identifying some of these chemicals that may only occasionally pass through us as being toxic and and how the Machinery is set up to to move against or test for these and then move against either the the source of the chemicals or trying to come up with some way to to at least identify these causes as they you know, as the years go by and we keep drinking them. They may accumulate, you know, (00:43:23) the biggest Advantage you have with the Mississippi River of course is dilution. Yes everything that's everything that's dumped in the Mississippi River from up above is either biodegradable or bio accumulate if it's biodegradable it slowly dissipates as it goes through the process if it's Bayou accumulated stays and it keeps going on through but you do have the dilution factor in that it spreads it out so that you're less apt to get a concentration. That doesn't mean that you won't I mean, it doesn't mean that you won't build up concentrations eventually. That's what causes cancer. Is A build-up usually have something until the immune system says I can't stand it any longer. I think it's very important to keep in mind when you look at something like the Mississippi River you do keep in mind that water is Mother Nature's sewer system and it's better to think of the Mississippi River as you would have septic tank because that's the way it functions anybody has a septic tank and I have one you understand that there are three things that will screw up a septic tank you overload the system. You kill the bacteria or you introduce something that the bacteria don't recognize. Well the exact same thing applies to the Mississippi River. So what do we do? First of all, we build Minneapolis st. Paul here and we put a million and a half people all going to bathroom every 15 to 30 minutes and putting it all in Mississippi River and we overload the system. Okay, so we do the first we make the first wrong second rule is you don't kill the bacteria because we drink out of the same Supply we say hey, we can't be drinking these bacteria. So tell you what Let's do let's let's chlorinate the water and kill all the bacteria to make sure that it's safe for people to drink forgetting the fact that only Some of the bacteria bad guys 90% are good guys. We kill them all then we put that water back in the Mississippi River. Now we have broken the second part of the balance. The third thing we do is since World War II, we've invented all these new things that back that organisms don't recognize and unfortunately, most of those are either carcinogenic or toxic and so we the very system that's designed to clean our supply out is the same system. We used to drink And it's very important that we understand that system and Main make sure that we maintain that very careful balance and monitor all the time (00:45:27) which we must be doing because the water is oh sure safe, of course. Oh, yeah, they were (00:45:30) not dying and you know and bass groups or anything like that. But each day new things occur and new things are added on one should not take that complacent. I think another thing to keep in mind is that the water treatment system in the United States based upon chlorination was developed in 1916 water sewage treatment. The United States is based upon 1928 technology. I'll bet you can't name anything else that we do with 1916 and 1928 technology and both of them are fast becoming obsolete and we're going to it's going to cost us a lot of money. So 216 billion dollars the United States to upgrade sewage treatment and water Delivery Systems. Hmm and they all must be done for the year 2000. (00:46:09) Let's take one maybe two more questions. If we have time. Go ahead, please you're on the air now. Yes, I was listening when you were mentioning the bacteria in the Boundary Waters area my parents live in the bound on the edge of the Boundary Waters and they get their water directly from the lake. It's a the intake is a little bit off shore and I'm sure that there isn't any real intricate filtering system and I was wondering if you could give me a few more details about this problem (00:46:35) again, we do have a publication on Giardia that that You can write and ask for or call and ask for it for seven one eight 407 I think if they ask the health department the health department would tell them they shouldn't be doing that fact. I know they would and I think they ought to be thinking very seriously about adding some other kind of filtration system or to assure that they don't end up with a Giardia infestation if they start getting a terrible stomach ache and it lasts 30 days, you'll know what they've got. (00:47:10) All right, one more very quick question. Go ahead, please you're on. Yes. I have a question regarding the irrigation permit is for a city homeowner is such a permit required if he wants to use it for watering lawn and garden. (00:47:23) No because for a city you pay to get your water supply and basically you're supposed to be charged for whatever use and there's no restriction on how you use that water (00:47:33) except. Of course, when we have periods of you know, no range, correct, right (00:47:38) whenever they have whenever they put water restrictions on then they make specific restriction other. There are none. (00:47:42) Yeah, well Joe, this has been very interesting as always. (00:47:45) It was a fast our wasn't it (00:47:47) always goes very quickly. I appreciate very much your coming in. Johri zillion is president of the freshwater foundation and the telephone number there. If you're curious about one of these brochures that he mentioned is 47184074718407. Or you can write to the mat 2500 Shady Wood Road towards their Shady Wood Road post office box 90 Navarre, Minnesota 5 5 3 (00:48:15) 9255392. (00:48:18) Yeah. Alright weekend is made possible by economics laboratory products and services for household institutional and Industrial Cleaning worldwide. Thanks to David sleep our engineer today and a Dorothy Hanford for answering the telephones stay tuned more good listening straight ahead on this station. This is Minnesota Public Radio a member supported service. And this is ksjn Minneapolis st. Paul the news and information service of MPR. I suspect Mark heisted is back and J.G. Preston is waiting in the wings. I do hear something of feet out there. I do believe that must have J.G. (00:48:54) He's all set to (00:48:56) move you out of there and take over I guess absolutely 12 noon is the time 50 feet 55 degrees in the Twin Cities that last report we're going to update you on news headlines at this point that give J.G. A chance to move all Potter's stuff off the desk in there so he can move in with his Sports desk to bring you this portfolio program today focusing on the game of football particularly, the seasoned professional season that gets underway here pretty quick tomorrow is in news headlines. Then the justice department has issued warrants for the hijackers of the Pan Am plane in Pakistan. Although spokesman says the administration does expect that they will be prosecuted under Pakistani law. The state department says it knows of only one American killed in The Siege. But another report from Pakistan says three America. But another report from Pakistan says three America.