(00:00:00) Today's midday is made possible by molinere computer systems West Highway 40 in Willmar dealers for ITT personal computers and business programs. The time is now 12 noon and our guest in our Studios today for Midday is 8th District representative James Oberstar Congressman Oberstar who is a Democrat gained national attention last summer when he chaired hearings that looked into the safety of the airline industry specifically the Galaxy Airlines crash of last January and specifically whether there are enough air traffic controllers around the country to monitor the increased number of flights. He's also been an outspoken opponent of the Reagan administration's Central American policy, including Aid to the contras. And of course, he's keeping his finger on everything else that's going on in Washington to these days. Thanks for coming in today Congressman. Thank you very much Paul. It's a delight to join you and your loyal audience and ksjn and they are there for the public radio and which enjoys a National reputation I hear excerpts from your program from time to time on drive time in Washington DC as I listened to WETA and they pick up the bits from bytes as you call them are radio from Minnesota Public Radio and I was I always say hooray that's us how nice to know that we're not lost out there out in the coast. In fact, well, maybe we can get to this later but just to throw this in right now I Congressional study that was released today says that it looks like economic growth patterns in the United States are going to be really split between the coastal areas and the Heartland they say the Heartland is really disadvantaged and economically stagnated right now, and I don't know if you have any thoughts on that but perhaps we could first go to some of the things that are before Congress as I mentioned earlier during our newscast. The tax reform conference committee is going to be getting underway next week and hashing out just exactly what's going to happen to our taxes. You have any input on That door you just an observer like the rest of this first an observation on your earlier comment about split growth patterns. I think this announcement follows a trend that has been occurring over the last two decades as the industrial Heartland of America has lost ground the Great Lakes states, which are the Agricultural and Industrial Heartland of America producing over 45 percent of the nation's agricultural production and its exports and over 50% of the nation's industrial capacity and one-fifth of all, I'm sorry 1/4 of all industrial jobs. We've lost ground to wear in the last five years we have in the Great Lake States barely one-fifth of all the industrial jobs in America. We have seen our exports decline for variety of factors in both Agriculture and in manufactured goods, and we've seen a corresponding rise in growth in economic. Activity in the coastal States both the Gulf and the East Coast the West Coast being a kind of a separate economic entity not direct competition with us. The currents does does give us a great deal of concern those who represent the heartland of America in some years ago. We formed the Northeast Midwest Congressional Coalition a group of 18 states from Middle Atlantic New England and Great Lakes areas to work on federal legislation to benefit our region and to offset this decline that has been occurring partly triggered by federal policies adopted years ago to to help the economically lagging South and border states, which has become updated by rapid advances in those areas. We made considerable progress in changing Federal legislation, but great deal more To be done. And the this is not the final chapter of this is just an indicator of this report is an indicator of a trend that has occurred over a period of years, which I feel is an all slowing and reversing back to our area. Well, of course you represent Minnesota's 8th District that includes the Iron Range probably the most ecologically economically depressed area of our state. Are you seeing any of that turnaround in that particular region yet taconite, which is dependent on the steel industry for its survival has weathered a very very serious storm of vast economic proportions in 1980 the taconite industry, which is the mining processing and shipping of low-grade ore and to high-grade pellets to the Lower Lake steel mills accounted for 55% of the northeastern Minnesota gross Regional product. We had 15,000 jobs at 450 million dollar payroll 900 million dollars. Goods and services purchased from some 2,000 Minnesota businesses by the eight principal taconite firms four years later with the vast increase in imported steel taking as much as 26 percent and last last year and early this year up to 30 percent of the domestic steel Market. We have seen a decline in the taconite industry amounting to 50% reduction in the workforce from 15,000 to just a few weeks ago barely six thousand jobs. That's nearly 60 percent Decline and decline in payroll from 450 million to barely 200 million dollar payroll and goods and services purchased dropped below the 400 million dollar Mark. However, we are seeing a sort of a bottoming out of the taconite industry those that remain have vastly increased their productivity the quality of their product they're able to Help reduce the cost of domestically produced steel and we're at work now Congressman Davis from Upper Peninsula of Michigan and I the two areas that represent 80% of the nation's iron ore production are working to stop the unfair competition from Brazilian iron ore and to stabilize our basic economies. There's been diversification occurring. However, that is beginning to stabilize our entire economy numbers of small businesses in the last three years. We've seen the growth of substantial numbers of new small firms that are producing manufactured products the computer industry basic Services. We are seeing growth and service Industries and wood fiber production that is producing new jobs and a basic diversification of our economy in northeastern, Minnesota. We haven't turned the corner. We have it replaced those 8,000 jobs lost but we're on our way and people are beginning to feel more confident about replacing the taconite industry. That is the jobs lost in tech industry with with other employment like to remind our listeners that you are invited to call in your questions this afternoon to Congressman Oberstar. If you're calling from the Twin Cities metropolitan area calling area, you can call us here at to 276 thousand and if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, but within the state we have a toll-free number for you to use that is 1-800-662-2386. As you're talking about economic development in the Iron Range in northeastern Minnesota area, you mentioned wood fiber and we have this flap going on now with Canada and how Canada is accusing the United States of taking a lot of their Lumber production away from them. Is that affecting the Minnesota lumber industry at all, or is that mostly the Western? It states the principal effective Canadian softwood exports to the United States is felt in the western states, Oregon and Washington and some in Idaho and Montana, but we also see the rail cars coming down from Fort Frances at at the Minnesota Ontario border bringing endless boxcars and unit trains of soft wood products into the United States and there is some Divergence there are small pulp Cutters along the North Shore Between Two Harbors and Grand Marais who are selling soft wood logs to Canada which in turn is processing that jury either in two Dimension Lumber or into pulp for the paper industry. So there there are some exchange that favors the United States with our products moving North but there's also some intervention in the in the, Minnesota. Minimal at this stage, but something that could grow in the future the disparity arises out of a unique Canadian scheme that prices stumpage that is would it hasn't been cut that the trees the value of the tree in the woods lower for tax purposes. Then we do in the United States which in addition to the Canadian 75-cent dollar gives Canadian exports substantial advantage over us production that accounts for vast increase in the sales of softwood lumber and has had its devastating effect perhaps not as great as we've experienced in the taconite industry, but unemployment rates in the 32 to 40 percent range in Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Montana, so those states are saying even out the competition they're asking Canada to Of its export tax subsidy. It's unfair stumpage pricing and to equalize other tax benefits that they're given that are given to Canadian firms strictly for the purpose of exporting to the United States remove those we can compete on a fair and square bases. Okay. We have a number of callers on the line already with questions for Congressman Oberstar. We'll go to our first caller. Go ahead please. (00:10:25) Hello. I understand kind of supernova said that you are co-sponsoring a bill sponsored by representative Pat Schroeder from Colorado HR 34:42 that would cut off the funding for the US nuclear warhead test now going on in Nevada and I understand that's coming up for a vote real soon. Could you tell me anything about the chances of that bill passing the house? (00:10:50) I think there's a likelihood that we could pass the legislation in the house. I don't think it has a chance in the Senate where there is more support. Worked for the military goals of the Reagan Administration. We will probably see this amendment offered in the course of floor debate on the armed services authorization bill that defense authorization bill, which will be coming up probably before the end of July for listeners who may not be as familiar with that bill as our caller was could you explain it? This is the annual authorization of funding for the entire military program of the United States. It covers both new weapons procurement research and development and the day-to-day operation of conventional forces in the US Military and it annually amounts to well in excess of two hundred eighty billion dollars the authorization provided for in the house budget resolution is 292 billion dollars for the upcoming fiscal year. Okay in the amendment in And the amendment that would prohibit any of the funds from being used to continue nuclear testing in excess of the salt to limitations. The Reagan Administration has announced that it will no longer abide by the Strategic arms limitation treaty and many of us in Congress feel that perhaps a majority of us feel that that's a mistake and will test that Viewpoint when this amendment is offered to keep the administration within the salt limitations. Now while we may have the votes to pass such a provision in the house and even it even if it should pass the Senate my sense is that the president would veto such a bill even if it means vetoing the entire authorization for the military program because he feels very strongly about ignoring salt to as president has put it as a means of pressure. In the Soviets into coming to agreement in Geneva, right? We'll go on with another caller with the question for Congressman Oberstar. Go ahead please (00:13:10) how do you do? I have a two-part question first part. You mentioned that you hope that jobs lost to heavy industry and Manufacturing in the midwest Great Lakes regions will be made up for by growth in the services and other Industries other people are saying that what we need to do something more fundamental. We need to change the nation's credit policies. We need to reform perhaps nationalize the Federal Reserve. I wanted to ask you if you are willing to take up your responsibility as a congressman to act within the Constitution and to control our credit. To gain the stability of our currency. And to put people back to work via constitutional money policy (00:13:59) you're speaking about to what the economists call macroeconomic policies or broad General economic policies and true. Those have great effect on local economies or Regional economies, but what my efforts have been focused in the 8th congressional district and particularly in northeastern Minnesota on particularized efforts to rebuild local economies and create new job opportunities. Now the to address specifically the suggestion that you made of nationalizing federalizing the Federal Reserve System, which is an independent entity of banks represented in a in the Federal Reserve board with the true Regional Boards of Governors in the Will Federal Reserve board system there was a time when I thought that the president ought to be able to appoint at the outset of his term the chairman of the Federal Reserve System and that there ought to be more politically responsive representation on the Federal Reserve board over a period of last 12 years. I've changed my views. I don't think that this is in the best public interest to have the chairman of the Federal Reserve board responsive to each incoming Administration. I think there ought to be some stability in the tenure of the chairman of the Federal Reserve board. Secondly, I think there ought to be the continued Independence of the Federal Reserve board as it now exists subject to review by Committees of the House and Senate and chairman volcker is called up to testify at open public hearings of the House and Senate. Banking committees and to explain monetary policy and to the house senate joint economic committee to explain monetary policy and he is not insulated from public opinion or from the views of Congress, but he is also not directly subject to annual swings in public opinion or viewpoints that may be valid for a brief period of time but not valid over a long period of time and the chairman of the Federal Reserve board ought to have that longer view. Now, the president has just recently made an appointment to the Federal Reserve System that does shift the balance among the Board of Governors to Viewpoint. Perhaps a little bit more responsive to the overall policy economic policy and monetary policy of this Administration and the result may be harmful. Long run so to while it may seem very attractive to as you called, it federalized the Federal Reserve System that is to make it a federal government agency and entity of the federal government with its leadership appointed by each incoming president and subject to removal by him that also has some inherent dangers as we are seeing right now with the change slight shift in monetary policy that was forced upon chairman volcker by the new Reagan appointee to the Federal Reserve board talking about controlling budgets and deficits and all those other money problems fiscal problems that the United States is facing course. It's the Supreme Court said that the key provision of grand Rodman is unacceptable. It's unconstitutional representative Graham now says that he wants to make that controller. Role which was ruled in unconstitutional position similar to the Federal Reserve Board in independent agency type of thing. Would you support that? I don't support much of what Phil Gramm Advocates I knew him in the house when he served there and I think his economic policies and principles are a little wacky say the least but his his idea. Of course. This was not Phil gramm's idea. The automatic deficit-reduction program was hatched in the Heritage Foundation of conservative think tank that is whose ideas and reports of drawn on heavily by the Republican party and which have made their way into much of the Reagan administration's policy over the last five years. We needed a forcing mechanism to reduce the deficit. And let's go back and just a few steps in time a year ago when this legislation was considered in the Senate and it was under consideration of the house the idea of a forcing mechanism seemed very good require the Congress in steps to reduce the deficit over a period of Time how to do that. There are two different viewpoints the Reagan Administration wanted to exempt defense authorizations and expenditures from any forcing mechanism and the Senate pretty much went along with the president's proposal until we got into conference between the House and Senate over this legislation and and the Log Jam that developed over the funding of various appropriation measures. Well the Senate finally agreed to the house position that defense should be covered that there should be equal reductions in Domestic in military spending every dollar in one should be matched by a dollar in reductions in the other and the president attempted to exempt Star Wars for example from the deficit reduction package and the house insisted that everything should be on the table and indeed. It was except for Social Security, which is a trust fund and the president supported exempting Social Security which ought to be off budget anyway and certain other entitlement programs for the what this Administration calls the neediest that poorest the most deserving. Now I voted against the gramm-rudman package when it when the conference report to reappeared in the house because I felt it abdic it meant that Congress was abdicating its responsibility to stand up and be counted on the basic economic decision affecting this country to turn over the final ultimate decision on how budgets are to be reduced to a non legislative Authority was to me a failure of our constitutional system in an abdication of congress's responsibility. We were elected to make policy and to be accountable for that policy to say that at the end of this budget process if Thirty billion dollars has to be cut out of the federal budget. We're not going to do it. We're going to turn it over to an agent of the executive branch or an agent of the of the Congress was to me wrong. So that members of Congress will go back to Districts and say well don't blame me. I didn't vote for that. Don't blame me. I didn't vote to cut that the Comptroller General cut it nonsense. We're all accountable and we all should stand up and be counted on those decisions and make those decisions. That's what we're elected for and I felt that that absent this this constitutional problem that there was a fundamental policy mistake made in the gramm-rudman legislation. I don't think that you should change the status of the Comptroller General. He is appointed by the president for a 15-year term the general accounting office has broad authority to look into fraud waste abuse of government programs. Annually the GAO recommendations and oversight and investigative function save the taxpayers this country up to 700 million dollars in money that would otherwise be wasted or Miss spent. That office needs the kind of Independence that it enjoys to carry on this very very important function. Secondly while there is Authority for the Congress by joint resolution to remove the Comptroller General. It has not been done since that office was established in 1921. I would I would be very very reluctant simply would use all my forces to resist a change in the status of the Comptroller General. I think we ought to amend that provision of the law and provide that at the end of the budget making process the Congress should vote further reductions in the budget of the federal government to achieve the deficit Target and take that responsibility. We are talking this afternoon with Congressman James Oberstar representative the eighth District of Minnesota. We have several callers waiting on the line will go to the next one. Go ahead (00:23:23) please. Hello. Hello? Yes. Hello. How are you doing today? Well, I want to say that the reason we have a prosperity in this country to the extent we have it is the gentleman who presides over the Federal Reserve board and to hear a previous caller suggest we get away from Paul volcker or anything that mediates his authority in our system would be a tragedy but I didn't call you about that. I just want to say incidentally that I agree with you totally on the controller generals value, but what I called you about I'm very angry about the failure of Congressman a particularly you with authority to let what happened with a Galaxy not every day. You should be on the floor of the Congress pointing. What an outrage that those Americans who died at Gander who were defending this country abroad in the United Nations peacekeeping Mission had a gentleman like Casper Weinberger who blamed it on some bureaucratic problem that Galaxy was still flying one of the a a flying trap and those guys all died. We have a phony by the name of engine who's running the FAA who constantly reassures us that the FAA is doing better. What I'm afraid Congressman Oberstar is what happened with the Challenger a program that everyone accepted until then we had a great disaster and now we're taking a look at Nasa. I think that are safety in the United (00:25:01) States. Okay. Let's let Congressman Oberstar now we're getting into a real big subject area here we talking about Galaxy Airlines were talking about the are crashing Newfoundland is about the Challenger explosion are those Related I thank the caller for his comments and and for raising a very very important subject for the listeners. Let me point out that our caller has has mixed a few issues Galaxy Airlines is not the same carrier that crashed in Gander Newfoundland and killed the 248 servicemen. That was Arrow are a separate Charter air operation Galaxy Airlines is owned and operated by a gentleman named Philip Sheridan operating out of Fort Lauderdale Florida which crashed an aircraft in Reno, Nevada, January 3rd, 1985 killing 70 people 69 of them from Minnesota the subcommittee that I chair the subcommittee on investigations and oversight has jurisdiction over Aviation among other issues including Blinds and truck and bus transportation clean water and groundwater contamination and you name the whole range of environmental concerns and we have them under our jurisdiction and we immediately instituted in inquiry into galaxies Airlines and have now held three separate hearings on Galaxy Airlines, including one just barely six weeks ago our hearing of last summer just about this time resulted in An Inspector General investigation of mr. Sheridan for allegedly falsifying information provided to the Civil Air Board civil Aeronautics board when he applied for his certificate to operate this Airline, and he was to have done certain actions including divested himself of to other interests in Airlines information that we developed showed that he had not Divested himself he had in fact turned over a nominal control and these other two entities to a woman who was his secretary of former Airline flight attendant and also known to be his mistress. The Inspector General has picked that up conducted an extensive investigation required information from his Sheridan. He was late in filing that information information has been now filed as a result of further hearings we've held and I expected soon to be turned over to the justice department where possible further charges may be filed depending on how the justice department reviews that well information. So so the and what mr. Sheridan has her has or has not done, you know, what what does that say about are safety particularly among these Charter the essential question involved in our inquiry into galaxies is the process by which The FAA and the Department of Transportation certifying new entrants in the air travel business and how they watch over those who are already certified the ca be heard in the way it certified. Mr. Sheridan on financial grounds, but the Secretary of Transportation has taken over that function of the ca B, and we want to be sure that the the d-o-t the Secretary of Transportation is making sure that people are financially secure when they undertake the obligation to run an airline because lack of financial capability is directly related to safety as is demonstrating the case of galaxies. This man did not have enough money to operate an airline properly. He was paying his help in cash. He was jumping one step ahead of the bill collector. He had fuel bills unpaid at One Stop aircraft would land at the next point and whew Up just about time. They took off to get a call from the previous. Stop saying don't feel that aircraft up. He hasn't paid his previous Bill and at the time of the crash. He was operating with a one propeller that was on loan from a propeller company and was about to expire all the equipment As Time expired there were 200 hours of flight data recorder time missing. So the national Transportation safety board couldn't find out precisely what were the data to measure the safety of that aircraft. We want to make sure that this kind of thing never happens again subsequent to the crash. The Galaxy Airlines was able to win a contract last summer from the US Air Force to carry spare parts for the United States Air Force about a almost a 6 million dollar contract the Air Force knew about the crash knew about the Lost lives knew that this man had financial problems. Was in the past and nonetheless issued him a contract and that contract was suspended because this Airline crashed now there's a relationship between galaxies and arrow are here's another operator who had a contract with the United States Air Force who had questionable history of Maintenance and Service and operations and nonetheless. They were awarded a contract we have through our hearings developed new coordinating mechanism within the Department of Defense and between the Department of Defense and the Department of Transportation and the FAA. So that information now is shared more thorough investigation is being done of new contract operators a more thorough surveillance programs being conducted by both the Air Force and the FAA a more detailed investigation of the capability of Charter operators to carry out contractual responsibilities. It's our goal to make sure that Humanly possible is done to avoid the kind of loss of life that occurred in both of these incidents related through the bureaucratic process will that affect only military contracts or will this be this type of coordinated information between the d-o-t and the FAA be Nationwide in the private sector it will apply to private sector operations as well. And the Department of Transportation has now developed a much improved and much more detailed Financial certification of air carriers that is the certificate of convenience and necessity that is issued to new carriers are being much more precise and exacting and requiring information on financial capability and managerial capability to operate an airline. Okay. We still have a number of callers on the line. I hate to even give out the phone number because I'm afraid we won't get to the rest of the people that are on right now. I will nevertheless the number in the Twin Cities is 227. Six thousand and outside the Twin Cities, but within the state the toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 ahead with your question, please for Congressman Oberstar. (00:32:24) Yes. I have three rather short questions. I would like to know where Congressman Oberstar got his expertise in air traffic control how much time he spent in any air traffic facility recently. And when is Congress going to start taking responsibility for giving air traffic the funding it needs to function as it should. (00:32:46) I have for 12 years served on the public works committee's subcommittee on investigations and oversight. I've participated in extensive hearings and review of documentation on air traffic control and are cabin safety on air worthiness of Airlines on the surveillance of Air Traffic Systems. I have visited a number of air traffic control Towers tray cons and enroute centers. I have visited with dozens perhaps hundreds of controllers both personally and by phone get calls late into the evening from air traffic controllers. I would not call myself an expert that is I don't know everything about air traffic control, but I feel that I know as much as I need to know and I'm continuing to learn about the nation's air traffic system and I know at least generally what is wrong and what Right Congress must bear some responsibility for adequate funding of the nation's air traffic control system. But the Reagan Administration must Bear full responsibility for not a for cutting back on funding for surveillance of Maintenance operations and for rebuilding the air traffic control system and and for not asking for adequate funds after it was discovered that these cutbacks had hurt the air traffic system. It was under the former administrator of FAA. Mr. Helms that a 40 percent reduction in maintenance surveillance was implemented during the early budget-cutting days 81 82 when mr. Helm said we can do more with less air traffic was increasing number of aircraft both the private and That that is general aviation and Commercial carriers had increased by more than 10% and he ordered a 40% cut in inspectors of the maintenance operations of carriers in that was just patently wrong. We in the Congress seeing the administration would not request increased budgets twice in the last two years have increased in the last three years. Correct me correct myself twice the last three years have increased the budget for the FAA for both inspection and for air traffic controllers, the the system is nowhere near the rebuilding it needs in terms of adequacy of personnel to carry out the increased workload. I have nothing but praise for those controllers who are on the job. They have doing a superb job under the conditions under which they operate and Maintenance inspectors who have an enormous Devotion to duty but they are overworked. They are understaffed. They're working excessive overtime working with with inadequate leave and we hear continued reports of stress and growing stress among maintenance inspectors and among air traffic controllers. I think we need to press ahead with with a much expedited increase in the number of controllers so that they will be able to handle the increased workload and and to do so with with the ease and the safety reliability that this system demands going to move ahead now to another caller with a question. Go ahead. (00:36:35) Hi Congressman. How do you do I'm from Two Harbors Minnesota and my questions about the proposed National Guard base up here in all for Northeast. Turner announced Saturday that he's doesn't want to put this any place where any citizens will Jack and Annie the whole project is going on a back burner. My question is you think that this back burner is eventually sort of speaking to be turned off. This project is going to die or do you think that the back burner is going to get turned on after the election? And after the governor is safely back in office. He's going to pursue this issue and go for a Guard base up here. (00:37:16) I must say I've talked with the governor about this matter and his view is exactly as he announced it that if the public do not want National Guard training facility. And for those who are not familiar with this is a proposal by the Minnesota National Guard to locate a training facility for so called table eight tanks. The largest tanks in the military Arsenal for training both for Minnesota guard and for guard units elsewhere around the United States. This would be a facility even larger than Camp Ripley wouldn't it? It would be larger in Gross acreage and and probably larger in terms of the actual acreage used for the training and the governor has said look if it's there for the guard has proposed it. It's now for the people to consider it and think it through and that's my position as well. I think there are possible advantages and there are some obvious disadvantages impact on the on the environment being certainly principal consideration the disadvantage in terms of of effect upon the wood supply in northeastern Minnesota. A number of small loggers have raised questions already and raised there objection to this proposal, excuse me until they know more about it. And on the other hand, there are Community such as white Lakes Aurora others that have expressed. Wrong support for the proposal because it may mean additional economic impact in terms of permanent jobs construction jobs purchase of goods and services in the area and location of personnel come there for training. I think we need more information about the proposal at this stage. It has been only sketchily outlined with some detail provided by the National Guard but more questions than answers at this point when I can say in specific response to the caller's question is that right now an environmental assessment is underway that is a preliminary review of the impact. The project would have upon the economy to I'm sorry upon the environment to determine whether a full-fledged environmental impact statement is needed the assessment will be submitted perhaps spring of next year and Reviewed by the governor and by the public and by the State Environmental agencies DNR and Environmental Quality Control Council and so forth and a determination then made as to whether a full environmental impact statement is needed. If so, and that and it would not decision not to have a fully is could be made only if the assessment showed conclusively that there would be no adverse impact upon the are the areas environment where the project be located the Eis would then take more than a year to complete and further time for analysis. Meanwhile the process would involve public hearings by the agency conducting the environmental impact statement and my guess is that a fully is will be required since at least part of this project would would require some some portion of the Superior National Forest and the u.s. Forest service. Would be obliged under current laws to require an environmental impact statement. So my suggestion to those who are concerned about the project is raised all the questions, you can get all the information possible from the Minnesota National Guard. I've written General sieben extensive letter with three pages of questions that have been raised to me by people living in the in any one of the four proposed impact areas and I'm awaiting response. It'll take some time to answer those questions and I will distribute that information to as many people as I have written to me about it. And that's quite a few. Okay. We have more callers on the line and the next one has a question for Congressman James over star. Go ahead, please. (00:41:31) Yes, I was in To America this time last year and I would dare say that in terms of national excitement. Nicaragua's celebration of their independence day the day of the sandinistas Revolution made our fourth of July look like a Kmart Bluelight special now, it's a shame that they didn't get ABC news coverage. My question is that in light of this obvious sign among others that the majority of Nicaraguan support the sandanista government. How can we vote to send money to the quote-unquote Democratic Contra fighters who are against this government in effect against true Democratic rule of the majority and specifically what made the house change their minds and I hope you can't answer that first (00:42:10) hand. The reason for the change was one person Ronald Reagan the president made a personal appeal to members of Congress personally put his prestigious president on the line and called upon members of his own party called in their loyalty to him to their party to his conduct of foreign policy. See and and relied heavily on the time-honored respect that Americans have for the president and the conduct of foreign policy and appealed also to Democrats who had voted against his plan and conservative Democrats from South particularly from areas that he has described as being the principal impact areas of an exodus from Central America. Unless Nicaragua is checked in its expansionist plans president has portrayed as you will know the image of a trail of refugees extending from Nicaragua all the way to Harlingen, Texas and he once graphically described as being only two and a half day drive from the border of Nicaragua. Well, I've seen the Pan-American Highway and if you could make it from Managua to Harlingen, Texas and two and a half days, you're not going by automobile. You're going by some other means a low hover craft or something I dismissed. The president's Viewpoint. I don't dismiss the sharp turn in policy that the sandanista government has taken since it achieved Victory and came into Power. I disturbed by the turn of policy that Daniel Ortega has followed. However, it is not the the responsibility of the United States to change governments in or the authority of our government to change governments and Central America by military force. The Reagan Administration ought to follow the contador peace process the for Central and South American governments who are attempting to achieve Regional peace through a negotiated process. But this Administration while initially proclaiming support for the contador process has done everything it can to undermine that process even cutting a little the ground out from Philip Habib the president's personal Envoy to the contador process by saying that you know, he was mistaken in his view that contador could succeed. The truth is that the Reagan Administration does not want peace in Central America a process established by the contador Nations because that leaves in power the sandanista government the Reagan Administration policy is not peace and Central America, but elimination of Daniel Ortega and his associates in the sandanista government in Nicaragua. They want the sandinistas out and they are prepared in the Reagan Administration to do so by military force and that is the central issue in funding of the Contra forces, they are not Freedom Fighters is the president calls them but rather continuing agents of the former Somoza regime who are exiled from Nicaragua and are now trying to come back into Power. I think it's wrong for us to follow that policy. I'll continue to object to it and to vote as I've done in the past in opposition to funding of military overthrow of the Nicaraguan government thoughts of Congressman James Oberstar on the Central American policy particularly in Nicaragua. We'll see what topic comes up next with our next caller. We're touching on a mini Myriad subjects here. And you are next. Go ahead. (00:46:01) Good afternoon. Good afternoon. The topic is again Nicaragua in this day and age. I have trouble knowing what to believe and so I get confused when I hear People in Authority say things they could the nicaraguans are supporting Libya terrorist training camps and their the officials and Nicaragua are actively participating in the importation of drugs into the United States and also that sandanista officials openly Express plans to exploit Revolution to Central America. I mean, it seems like on both sides there's things to believe in things not to believe and if these things are true, why should we support or sit by and watch the sandanista government take root very deep root in Central America. (00:46:57) First of all, you're talking about allegations about the sanity's to government about drug trafficking about export of Revolution. There's no evidence whatever export of Revolution indeed. If there were any government in the region that would export Communists ideas of Revolution. It would be Cuba and they have a much longer established much broader based more militant leadership in that regard than does Nicaragua if that is the purpose of the Reagan Administration to stop the exportation of revolution. Then why don't they overthrow Castro? Why don't they have freedom fighters working to invade Cuba again? And again, this Administration has cited Cuban advisors Cuban teachers Cuban doctors president. Nicaragua will go to the Don't don't beat up on the sandinistas go to the source if that's your policy, but that is not the real purpose of the Reagan Administration. They simply want to have a military conquest in Central America. They set up the sandinistas as communist evil and their attempt their policy is to attempt a route that evil out by military overthrow. I think we had followed a different policy over the last five years toward the sandinistas. They would they would not have moved as they have to the left to the Soviets to Cuba. For example, when I visited Nicaragua one of our American officials State Department said, well, there are 2,000 Cuban teachers here in Nicaragua. And I said, why aren't there two thousand American teachers? I'm sure with the unemployment which then was Nationwide. It did nearly 10% There are lots of Unemployed teachers who speak Spanish who could come down here and work in the literacy program and secondly isn't it a sad commentary on the 50-year relationship. The United States has had with Nicaragua that they need a literacy program after all of our support for Samosa after all of the exchange. We've had and the propping up of that dictatorship that now after he's gone. We find that 80% of the people are illiterate we bear a responsibility there, too. And we can't just simply dismiss the the current events as being a communist plot. Okay, go ahead to another caller for the question for Congressman Oberstar. Go (00:49:43) ahead. Hi, you said that you have confidence in making peace through dialogue with those who have never desired peace, but who openly murder those who descent from their so-called people's Revolution and you seem not to have learned the lesson of Hungary and Czechoslovakia Poland and Gola Vietnam Mozambique and every other Nation where there's been a so-called people's Revolution and you've also said that the gramm-rudman bill is unconstitutional yet. You would like to see the Federal Reserve given more immunity and navy surf the Constitutional power of the Congress to coin money and have created inflation to store the gold standard. So I'm trying to figure out where are you really at on these things? What's your underlying motive behind your stance on these (00:50:27) one thing I explain myself very clearly on each one of those issues. I first of all did not discuss the constitutionality of the Comptroller General provision of the gramm-rudman ACT. I said, I thought it was wrong on. Grounds for the Congress to abdicate its responsibility to make Cuts in the federal budget the Supreme Court decided that this provision of the gramm-rudman Act was unconstitutional by giving to an agency of the legislative branch executive branch Powers with regard to Federal Reserve System. I thought I explained that rather extensively. I don't think it needs repeating and you make certain assumptions. I'll say that the caller that about actions in Nicaragua that are not valid. I don't I don't condone the policy or shift of the Ortega Junta and thus enemies to government to what is seems to be more and more of a Marxist or even communist policy. But by the same token, I don't think we have the right. To change that government by military means it's what people Nicaragua themselves in there any number of callers to and listeners to Minnesota Public Radio who have been to Central America been to Nicaragua who can testify to Broad popular support for the current government in that country. Do you support the sandanista government? I don't support the Senate. He's the government what I do. So what I do oppose is policy of this government to overthrow the sandinistas by military means okay go on to another caller we have about six minutes remaining in our question period and we'll try to get in as many colors as we can in that time. But on to the next one, go ahead, please. (00:52:18) What a Thursday over stir. How do you do? (00:52:21) What is this? What is (00:52:22) that that's illegal under any means but You mentioned that President Reagan was a source of having had this change of heart in the House of Representatives. And that's my question addressed to the house all the members in the house. And in the Senate are aware. I'm sure of national law the 1970s 1794 Neutrality Act which prevents the United States to support armed Insurrection with a country with which it is not at War. It has members and Senate Senators are aware of international law the requirements under the United Nations and the organization of American states Charter Rio treaty and others they've heard now shortly after the actually day after the houseboat the international court of justice decision. They are aware of the American public. Why do they Then Fall for the swan song from? Mr. Regan? They not aware that what that man is asking for. Is illegal under United States law and national International treaties. (00:53:39) You raise the question very very appropriately and you put it in very sharp perspective. That was the Second World Court decision that the United States has decided to exempt itself from and and had any other country is said following a world Court decision. Sorry, we're not going to be bound by it. We'd have this Administration would have labeled that country as an outlaw yet. It chooses take that sort of Liberty for itself. Secondly. Why members of Congress shifted the previous vote on Contra. Aid was a very narrow one. We won by six votes. It didn't take much for the president to shift that number in his favor working first and people of his own party appealing to their loyalty to the president into the institution of President and his authority to carry out foreign policy. Secondly. There are a number of nervous members on my side of the aisle. From Southern States whose constituents genuinely fear that there's going to be a great Exodus from Central America as a result of continuing continuing in power of the Senate. He's the government and they don't want these hordes of immigrants over running their communities. I'm speaking very frankly and very directly about prevailing opinions. That is what this vote was based upon a fear of some of crossing swords with with a very popular and Powerful president a fear of future movement or Exodus from Central America and a feeling also that on the part of many of these members. We don't want to be accused at some future date of having lost Central America to the Communists. That's still a very basic fear among many people in this. Free that and this old red herring that was used in the 50s is now surfacing itself again in the policy debates of the 1980s. We will go on to our next caller and I will ask this caller to be brief, please because we do just have a couple of minutes remaining in our program. Go ahead (00:55:50) please to see what a tragedy. The assumptions that you're making about the Reagan Administration aims, which are probably not correct. I have to be a subscriber to Buckley's National Review the human events to the American spectator policy review your facts are very much mixed up on a lot of the things that you've talked about. Particularly Nicaragua (00:56:20) Excuse Me Miss. Do you have a question for the representative? Because we do have to get moving along (00:56:25) here. (00:56:31) Okay. That's a comment. I guess any response ladies entitled to her viewpoint. She was expressing a view not a fact and when I was talking about were facts facts are indisputable policies based upon those facts May differ in the minds of various people, but what I cited as the policy the Reagan Administration is indisputable the actions speak for themselves president has enunciated policy is not deviated from what he wants the military overthrow. The Senate needs to government and Central American and Nicaragua. He wants a military posture of the United States and Central America. There is no disputing that it is a fact that is why he's asking for this hundred million dollars. Okay, we have about one minute remaining any any thoughts we started out in never really got to the whole tax reform question. Well, which starts off next week, of course the kind of summarize what is remaining on the Congressional agenda is the tax reform conference between the House and Senate the restructuring of the budget deficit reduction act the 13 appropriation bills providing for all functions of the federal government that has yet to to have yet to pass either the house or Senate and a number of major pieces of authorizing legislation like the Superfund reauthorization the Clean Air Act the Clean Water Act the Water Resources legislation and the highway Bill providing for continued funding of the interstate highway program the secondary hi. Primary and secondary Highway program in mass transit all are yet to come within the next four weeks on the agenda of Congress small subjects hardly a lot of work yet to be done in Washington you head back there next week is it? Yes we go back into session on Monday. All right. Well, we really appreciate you stopping in and talking with us and with our listeners for this hour today and good luck in Washington. Thank you very much. Paul has been a real pleasure to join you.