our main speakers this evening are dr. Wilke who is a physician and has all his also one of the founding members and present of the national right to life committee. He has with his wife written a number of different books and I will simply give you a few of the titles that are on the DaVita that he submitted they include abortion questions and answers. Abortion as it is how to teach the pro life story abortion and slavery history repeats is in Newark that he has just finished and there are number of others. Miss Faye wattleton is the president. of Planned Parenthood She is. Also from the health careers, she graduated from Ohio State with a bachelor's degree in nursing and has additional graduate work in maternal and infant Health with a certificate as a nurse Midwife from Columbia University. Butte complete art of speaking for the evening will be back to Wilkie then his wattleton and then we will move then it will be Aaron Rasmussen and following at the in the last Position will be Kathy dobash. First of all, I'm really honored to be here. I've heard a lot about your school and this is my first visit here. I I thank you very much for the invitation. The issue of abortion as we see it is the issue of the balance of this Century. It is a question of who shall live and who shall die it is we believe the Civil Rights issue of the next decade. For the first two hundred years of our nation's history and almost 2000 years total behind us in a judeo-christian tradition abortion had been a crime or a sin depending upon whether it was state or church the first state legalizing abortion in 67 only one-third had voted for legalization and most of them with very restrictive laws until 1973 at which time the Supreme Court handed down two decisions, which swept away all laws in all 50 states that had in any way shape or form protect The Unborn Child during the entire 9 months of pregnancy and made abortion legal until birth. Abortions have increased since that time the death toll stands now at 4,000 a day almost one-third of all babies conceived in America are killed by abortion as Vice President Bush said in the debate a year ago something must be done. The movement I represent here is a movement that is basically spit split into two parts proximately 2/3 of the volunteer offices that have come to be because of the abortion Holocaust are women helping centers. Approximately one-third are right to life offices. And the distinction is that the women helping centers are there to help women who have trouble pregnancies this includes the pregnancy counseling at a variety of types. It includes we women exploited by abortion. It includes those who counsel post-abortion mom houses for women who need help housing afterwards maternity home for beforehand. If ever it was said that we only concern ourselves about the fetus that is long since gone for the overwhelming influx of Evangelical and fundamentalist Protestants that have doubled and tripled our ranks in the last two three four years have heavily moved into helping women. There are two victims in this crime and certainly the woman is one of them right to life is the activists are almost 2,000 chapters across the country basically educational lobbying and political within our ranks. We have more Democrats than Republicans approximately two to three Protestants for every Catholic many more young than old and by far mostly women. As we see the issue we see only two questions. The first is overriding and overwhelming it simply says who or what is this passenger? What is it that grows within the mother? If what grows within the mother is not yet human not at all. Human just sells a piece of meat. Then my opponent tonight has much to be said for an abortion could be justified for many reasons incidentally our own organization accepts abortion. Only when one life hangs in the balance against the other on a scale and then would permit abortion. What is this the girls within the second question if you say yes to that is should we protect all human lives equally? Or should we discriminate by law against an entire class of living humans? Let me treat the first one briefly. This will be the first time. Oh golly. I guess I've done two or three in the last 5 years without using pictures. I am here under protest. I agreed to this because there was only one way to come and that was on the terms of the other person hear. My basic story to you is what is this that grows within I am not allowed to show pictures. I will say no more except to say that I really can't present my case without it. Incidentally, I was fully in favor of displays ahead of time literature before and after and to give both participants the full right to present their case in the way that they felt best. So I am somewhat constrained. Let me then try and detail for you quickly some facts of fetal development. Those of you who have red in it maybe wasn't widely publicized. There was a little girl who was born in Orlando Florida for months ago weighing exactly a pound and 3 oz little Kenya King. The details have been publicized. She dropped to 13 Oz regained and it 5 lb went home to her mother a little more than a week ago. She was exactly 21 weeks old in her mother's 40-week pregnancy when she came ahead of time. That is she was one week past four and a half months and we date that from the first day of the last normal menstrual. Or in fact, she was 19 weeks old from conception. It is my understanding from the news reports that she is a healthy young child. Okay, what does Kenya and several others like her who have been born in recent years tell us they tell us that babies can now be born to survive as early as halfway through pregnancy. if I back down just smile at exactly that time 19 weeks. We find that by ultrasound the babies now in their waking and sleeping in the womb already have what we call REM sleep REM rapid eye movement, sleep unborn children begin to sleep and wake as early as 12 weeks. They begin to move their eyes at fourteen but REM sleep at 19. Now when you sleep you go down through about five phases of sleep. One of them is REM sleep and when you have REM sleep you're dreaming. Let's go down a little bit younger at approximately three to three-and-a-half months. Let me Clump a few things here. You began to breathe. Each of us practice breathing for 6 months before we came into the air world. That's when we began to swallow digest urinate and have bowel movements. It is a known fact that we began to digest nutrients from the fluid. We swallowed if you're born with esophageal pinching or atresia, you will be more scrawny sleeping and waking begins at that time. And so does hearing cut in in the fourth month these babies at that point feel pain. They actually feel pain as early as eight weeks at least insofar as we can tell if you stick a newborn baby with a diaper pin. What do you get? A reaction pulling away you get the little one opening up her mouth. And if you're within earshot, she'll tell you that she didn't like it. That's a brainstem level or thalamic reflex. The thalamus is fully developed by 8 weeks and we know that these children react from noxious stimuli. So at roughly 12 weeks along in the womb all organ systems function, they're not all fully mature for a little boyfriends since there's 15 more years until his sex organs are fully mature, but they're all there. At 10 weeks the structure of your body was complete at that point. You already had fingerprints. You were so tiny that you could have stood on your daddy's little fingernail. The size of your feet at that time. I wear as a lapel pin. This is exactly the size of your feet when you were 10 weeks old and fingerprints at 8 weeks. You were already swimming freely in the fluid with a coordinated Left Right. Swimmer's stroke. If we placed an instrument in the palm of your hand, you would grasp it and hang on on the other hand. If instead of laying the instrument in your hand at which time you grasped. We would pull it back and stick you with the end. You'd pull your hand away. you had an electric cardiogram could be done and If you had an ultrasonic stethoscope, you could let the woman listen to the heartbeat of her tiny child at that age. These are almost ubiquitous in medical practice today. There are three of us in my medical office. We have two such instruments. We have one on every hospital floor. But abortion places never have them. I have yet to find a single abortion facility here in Canada or abroad that tells a woman client that there is a heartbeat and they would never dare let her hear it. I would submit to you that she certainly will find out later and it is some of those women finding out later. Making their own judgment at that time that if there was a heartbeat there was life here, and I killed my baby. Who come to us for counseling with the crushing guilt and even instances of suicide? That is never told them in an abortion facility. At 6 weeks first movement. If you take a list for me knows he'll pull his head away at 6 weeks far more important. I believe demonstrable human brain function as measured on the electroencephalogram. We measure the end of human life by the ending of human brain function is measured on that instrument plus other parameters. Why is it that some refuse? To measure the beginning of human life at least by the beginning of that same human brain function as measured on the same instrument. At 3 weeks your heart began to beat a matter fact only 18 days. You were if pregnant only three days over to and and your baby's heart was beating. At approximately 10 days this tiny little one planted within the mother's womb. And within a day or two sent out a chemical message that stopped her. We now know that it is the developing baby within who stops her mother's menstrual periods. And well, she might or none of us would be here. The first week of our life. We spent floating down our mothers Tube before that implantation at 10 days. And the first day of your life and mine was the day when your father's sperm joined your mother's over for at that time a complete human body existed never before to exist in the history of the world never again to exist totally male or female from that first cell stage certainly alive. Totally human 46 human chromosomes. Obviously, not a carrot. Self contained moving forward in a self-controlled ongoing process of maturing and development replacement of his or her own dying cells. Moving forward to spend that time with in the mother taking from the mother's body the nourishment needed and finally setting his or her own birthday. It is a simple biologic fact that human life in its totality begins at the first cell stage and anyone who denies that is either uninformed or they lie. abortion discrimination the second question because I think the first one's answered. Yes. This is human life. Should we discriminate against an entire class of living humans in this case on the basis of place of residence? Because if you can escape from your first place of residence the night before you are to be killed then the law of this land protects your life no matter how old you are. Have we ever done such discrimination before? two major ones in recent history once to our total shame as a world discrimination on the basis of race the Nazi Holocaust. And once before in our own country to our equal shame discrimination on the basis of skin color slavery. The analogies there are incredible. I wrote a book about it. 18573 years before the Civil War Dred Scott Decision 722 US Supreme Court black people are not legal persons. They have no civil or human rights. They are the property of the slave owner. He may buy or sell or kill. abolitionist protested to be met with a retort by none other than chief justice Tani of the US Supreme Court who basically said now look you're against slavery. That's morally offensive to you. That's all right. You don't have to own one. But don't force your morality on the slave owner. He has the right to choose. To own a slave that is now a constitutionally protected right get off his back. 1973 Roe versus Wade Supreme Court decision on abortion 722 unborn people are not legal persons. They have no human or legal rights. They are the property of the owner the mother who make keep or kill. And we protest it to be met with Justice blackmun saying much the same and you've heard that one now look here. You don't like abortion you find it morally offencive. That's fine. You don't have to have one. But don't force your morality on the owner. She has the right to choose to kill. That is now a constitutionally-protected right get off her back. the analogies incredible choice I think I've given you the answer to choice. I can choose to swing my fist but that right stops at your nose. I have the right to freedom of speech. I hope within this Auditorium, but I cannot shout fire. A woman has the right to her own body, but that does not extend to the body of a member of the opposite sex who 50% of the time she carries within her womb. Choice there are only two once a woman is pregnant. Nature and God willing she'll have a baby. She's always had the hope for a choice of a healthy one now. Big deal. She's being offered a new Choice the choice of killing and so the right to choose is a right to choose to kill. unwanted every child a wanted child the slogan of the group that my opponent represents, but let's finish the sentence for when you talk about unwanted pregnancy. It should say every child who want to travel and if not wanted to kill Since when does anyone's right to live depend upon someone else wanting them? My goodness what a monstrously evil ethic. I tell adult audiences I said if that was the actual law of the land I doubt if any teenagers would have made it to Stew of pardon me a mature adult audiences. your parents If that was in fact the law of the land, I wonder how many teenagers would have made it to adulthood. Unwanted pregnancy produce unwanted child know it doesn't there isn't a single legitimate study in the world sociological literature. That would uphold that frequently held belief furthermore battered children the world's Landmark study University of Southern Cal Professor Edward landowski about a decade ago, 90% of battered children were planned and wanted pregnancies their mothers War pregnancy clothes two to three months earlier than the national Norm. The father's name the boys after themselves three times often or they were so proud to be parents. We don't understand the six psychology of battering children too. Well, but one thing we know they were not unwanted pregnancies. They were super wanted pregnancies. Is it a question of imposing morality? I think it is. I asked how much longer will we as Citizens tolerate abortionist and pregnant women imposing their morality on their helpless babies Faithfully. Number of other questions that may very well come up and I certainly am again pleased to be here. Let me reiterate the body count is 4000 a day. Every third baby conceived in America almost is being killed. We are well under replacement-level on population. This nation is aging rapidly. Something's got to be done. Thank you very much. Before Faye wattleton begins her opening remarks and her 20 minutes. I'd like to make it clear that it is relatively standard policy at st. Olaf to not have banners and slogans within the grounds of a particular debate. And that has been done in the interest of keeping this at 11 love conversation and discussion and not reducing it to slogans. Therefore this is not something imposed upon by one of the speakers. With that clarification we will continue. Thank you. I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak with you this evening on Reproductive Rights issues particularly in light of the current controversy that is permeating our society and that is so prominent within the political process. Today, we enjoy As Americans a tremendous range of options opportunities that our parents and their parents never thought possible. We are more in control of our lives and our Destinies than any other generation before us but all of these options and opportunities depend on one single Central Point and that is the right to make one of the most fundamental decisions in our lives. And that is the right to make a decision about whether or when to Bear children. That is not a right that is in the abstract. It is a very real and practical right? Because of 1985 Anatomy is no longer our destiny. But also in 1985 there is a campaign being waged to force us back to the days when Anatomy was our destiny when we were imprisoned by our reproductive systems. Those who are waging. This battle want to construct a society that is intolerant of diversity of opinions on these issues that is intolerant of personal privacy. Invariably their answers to society's most complex problems are rigid simplistic moralistic on accommodating of any view that is not shared by them. We see challenges being made by those who claim to know the mind of God on all matters. I call that owning God and we're prepared to enlist the power in the Machinery of government to enlist their will if we will not comply through persuasion. And in this controversy extremists have made it clearer than ever before that. Their real goal is to ban not only abortion but also to limit sexuality education in our society until lemonade access to family planning society and within our society. The only means that we know to prevent the need for abortion. It really is truly in congruous. Why in Heaven's name would those most vocal leaders in the anti-abortion movement also want to eliminate the very efforts that are being made to prevent abortion in my opinion. That's like suggesting that we can eliminate motorcycle accidents by outlawing how helmets Could it be that their ultimate goal is to control the sexual practices of Americans or something very close to that or could it be that we should be concerned about our individual rights and our capacity to decide for ourselves how we will conduct Our Lives. Because of the extremists have their way 5 million poor women and teenagers in this country will find it hard indeed to prevent unintended pregnancies. The Nations Family Planning program is being severely threatened and it is in imminent danger of being destroyed. Despite the fact that this Federal program has been the most effective means of preventing unintended pregnancies and abortions. Leaders of a campaign to destroy the Family Planning program are all men. I might add. They have been known also for the rabbit anti-abortion stand there represented by Congressman Jack Kemp of New York, Senator Orrin Hatch of North Carolina, Utah, Senator, Jesse Helms of North Carolina and my opponent in this evenings discussion. And if a Congress does not act by November 14th, we could see the elimination of the nation's Family Planning program a program that is funded 5,000 mostly non Planned Parenthood Clinic with open their doors and provided preventive methods to more than 5 million people each year. Certainly, many of them will have to cut back on their programs and those who will bear the brunt of this cut back of these cutbacks will be the poor and teenagers since the United States Bears. The dubious honor of leading all developed nations in the rate of teen pregnancy abortion and childbearing the prospect is foreboding. But even if Congress does agree to Van to continue funding this program, we still face the threat that there will be crippling amendments that will be offered to this program one Amendment would deny title 10 recipients the right to provide contraceptives and perform abortion in the same building even though the monies are segregated. Even to mention the word abortion in providing counseling sessions would disqualify an organization from receiving these funds. Supposedly the intent of this initiative is to eliminate any ambiguity about whether title 10 funds are being used for abortion related activities, but by Statute title 10 funds cannot be used for abortion activities and no title 10 providers as verified by government investigators have ever been found in violation of the law. 9 women the right to be counseled about all of the options available to them not just abortion. But all of the options available did it to them when they are confronted with an unintended pregnancy is a violation of medical ethics. It is a violation of the practices of the high standards of practice of Medical Care in this country. And what did the national right to life committee have to say about these efforts are being made to destroy the nation's Family Planning program the single most effective program that prevents unintended pregnancies in this country. Their statement said that if a doctor feels he personally is under some sort of ethical obligation to recommend our Council abortion. He should withdraw from the title 10 program. That opinion suggests that Healthcare professionals should give up ethics and Professional Standards on the altar of federal funds. They went on to say and I quote title 10 was enacted in 1970 when abortion was still illegal in the majority of the United States if title 10 grantees were at that time able to deliver contraceptive services without including abortion-related Services they could do so again in quote there right providers could do so again, but why should we return to the dark era of Horrors that once Afflicted our society? If today is extremists really want to prevent abortions, they really want to introduce the need for abortions. Why not join with us to strengthen the nation's Family Planning program and to avoid crippling the poor the efforts that are being made to prevent unintended pregnancies. Why work to place restrictions on Family Planning programs both at home and abroad International Family Planning agencies have also been attacked by them the administration decided more than a year ago that it would deny funding for international agencies that offer abortion counseling with their own funds and it also decided that it would fund International Family Planning agencies that offer the so-called natural methods of Family Planning the least effective methods of Family Planning. We believe that this dangerous policy will be overturned by the Congress of the United States and the Congress will reject any other counterproductive restrictions on funding for Family Planning both domestic and international. If the anti Family Planning extremists have their way there can only be more unintended and unwanted pregnancies more poverty and suffering in the world and more abortions. Among among the poorest people in America and in the developing world, we will see more of what I have just described. These are real living human beings. These are our mothers. These are our sisters. These are our loved ones. This is a miss a reprehensible misuse of our government's machinery and Power. And just as reprehensible are the tactics that are being used to ban abortion in this country here again, we see the lack of compassion for women and for human suffering. Buy some Curious logic there, Their compassion is reserved for The Unborn and I thought it very interesting that the speaker that preceded me seem to only briefly mentioned the woman as as having any consequence in this debate very often. They ignore the plight of the woman, which is very serious. We failed to reach they have failed to reach their goal time and again in the courts and in the Congress, but most importantly they have failed to convince the minds and the hearts of the American people that we should turn our backs on women. One of their ploys is to claim that the fetus feels pain during abortion. We are to be, historical and very deeply concerned about that even though they know that this is a misrepresentation of scientific evidence. Their position is that any amount of pain stress or anguish for the woman is Justified when balanced against the so-called rights of a fertilized egg. The wave of harassment against women who seek Family Planning services and those providers of those Services who offer abortion facilities has been profound and it goes on an 1984 24 clinics for torched and bombed this year. There have been eight bombings and incidence of arsons and countless bomb threats and death threats. We can only expect such extremism from a movement that preaches a doctrine of intolerance of the views and the practices of others. How many of you in this this audience may be too young to remember the days when abortion was illegal in this country. I remember because I was a professional nurse who often ministered to the women who suffered in and on occasion. I cared for women who ultimately died Hospital Wards were filled with women real living human beings who suffered. The terror against women today in the abortion bombings is reminiscent of the violence against women during the years when abortion was illegal. Clearly the Supreme Court did not invent abortion when it made it a constitutionally protected right to decide to have an abortion women have always had abortions. They will always have abortion even if it kills them what has changed though is women now can have abortions under safe and legal circumstances. The policies with respect to abortion has been very very changing even in the early Roman Catholic Church abortion was allowed in the first three months of pregnancy. It wasn't until 1588 that post Pope sixtus V declared all abortions murder. Just three years later though a new pope found sanctioned these sanctions unworkable and he once again allowed abortions 300 years pass before Pope Pius the 9th again declared abortion to be murder in 1869. This Remains the official Church position. In our own country, we have seen similar changes in abortion policy until the mid-nineteenth century Most states follow the English common law. Stating that abortion was legal until quickening when a woman first feel fetal movement which occurs around the fourth month of pregnancy by the 1850s. However, Physicians began a movement to prohibit untrained practitioners from performing abortions abortion was a very risky business in the pre-antibiotic days and infection very often led to the death of the woman the result that was by the end of was that by the end of the nineteenth Century most abortions were legal in all but a few States The exception was when a woman's life was endangered this policy continued until the 1960s and between 1967 and 1973 17 States had reformed their abortion laws and in 1973 the Supreme Court legalized abortions in all states. There was recognition within our society and there continues to be recognition within our society that is impossible to force laws that govern the most private aspect of Our Lives. People realized one Central Point and that was abortion would exist and the question was not whether it would be eliminated. But whether it would be illegal and unsafe and the woman would give her life or it would be legal and safe with the prospect that the woman could go on to attain her future options. Despite the clamor of those who want to force women to give up their rights to endanger their health to ignore their most basic needs for the sake of The Unborn abortion is a vastly complex issue differences of opinions on this issue are very deep and they are very frequently and they are shaped by our religious beliefs and our personal circumstances throughout the centuries theologians and philosophers have held widely varying views on the abortion issue as they do today. So we must be aware of those who claim all-knowing wisdom and who claim a very simple uniform answer to what is one of the most complex of human dilemmas. Those who rhetoric whose rhetoric mask their true intent. We must reject all policies to impose on us. Very basic. If the very basic and position of laws that are now not apart of the laws of this land and this and that are Khan son constitutional as defined by the Supreme Court. In a free Society it is intolerant or intolerable to ask citizens to give up their constitutional protection as a condition of government assistance. And we must resolve ourselves to work for a society that recognizes the dignity and the worth of all persons. We must recognize and continue to work for a society that recognizes the ultimate Dignity of women. We must never ignore repression. No matter where it appears whether it appears in the courts and the legislators in the white house or in the church. So I urge you in closing this evening to remember that compassion for human needs and respect for human rights are the Hallmark of this nation. Threats to abortion rights and other Reproductive Rights are threats on women. There can be no equal rights. The woman's rights must always predominate. This is a matter of competing rights, and in the best of all societies. We must very often make decisions that give women the best opportunity to reach their potential. These are fundamental freedoms, which should be cherished by us all. Thank you. The next speaker this evening is Aaron Rasmussen senior Psychology major and a volunteer pregnancy options counselor for Planned Parenthood. Can you play? My name is Erin Rasmussen. And as she said I'm a senior and a Psychology major here. I am pro-choice. And tonight I want to talk to you about why I'm pro-choice. I'm a pregnancy options counselor Planned Parenthood. That's something I volunteer for along with the other groups of volunteers. We're trained for this. over. About 3 months and what it is is that women come into the agency. I give them a pregnancy test take them into a private counseling room and tell them the results. I then ask them what their feelings are about the pregnancy. What they're considered and get a feel for their situation. Basically, then my job is to act as a resource person. I give referrals to doctors if they're interested in continuing the pregnancy and need prenatal care. If they're interested in adoption, I can refer them to Catholic Social Services, which is the agency that that handles adoption. If they need money, we work towards getting the Medicaid or afdc. And if they're considering abortion, I tell them about the procedure. Basically, what I usually do is I start at the beginning from the group counseling and individual counseling talking through the procedure fine if they have any questions all the way through to recovery. And this this is done so that the women have the resources to make an informed decision. I always talked about all of the options. There's a danger in this kind of counseling. And that is when a woman comes in and expects me to make the decision for her. It's a difficult decision and women don't want to make the decision most the time. But this is something that isn't for most of my mind's always let me give an example. I had one young woman come in. She was 16. She was pregnant. She had quit school previously and was working at a fast food restaurant. Her parents were pushing her to have an abortion. She wasn't sure if she wanted to have an abortion but on the other hand, she wasn't sure if she was ready for motherhood. She didn't think that she could handle the emotional trauma of adoption because that's the way she felt. Her boyfriend's I guess hadn't been around so she hadn't been able to discuss it with him. She's considering the idea of marriage, but if you ever age and if you have her boyfriend circumstances, she didn't think that this would be a realistic option. She looks at me then and expected expected me to make the decision for her or at least for her to throw an idea out of Mia and me to validate her decision one way or the other to say you're you're making the right decision your circumstances sound of such. But I don't do that. It's a personal choice and at that point I emphasized to her. That it's not decision I can make for her. It's her life her body. her pregnancy and her future I won't make that decision because I can't make that decision. And neither can anyone else? Not her parents that are friends not her Congressman just her. One thing that I really gain for my experiences at Planned Parenthood is the fact that every woman with an unwanted pregnancy is different and has a different set of circumstances. There's no one representative group that comes in with an unwanted pregnancy is different relationship considerations different economical considerations, religious considerations and most importantly different attitudes towards the morality of abortion. pro-choice dance recognizes this and recognizes the right of every woman to make her own decision her own informed decision concerning her pregnancy. I would like to see fewer abortions performed every year. It's that. But the answer is not through the criminalization of abortion. In the past when abortion was illegal women literally butchered themselves and often died. In attempts at to self-abort or by going to quacks in back alleys. And this is obviously not the answer the answer in bringing down. The number of abortions. Every year is through education through providing information and making contraceptives available to those women who need them. That is what will bring down the number of abortions by bringing down the number of unwanted pregnancies. Aside from abstinence and sterilization. There is no 100% effective method of birth control. And while we have imperfect methods and imperfect people. The choice of a legal and safe abortion as an option is a necessity for women. The last of our panel members is Catherine I brush the senior nutrition and health studies major and an activist on right life issues in the last year. I have been convicted by scripture in Bible Eve by my belief in God that it Boursin indeed is murder and that's what I'm here to share with you tonight. Grappling with this issue for me. I personally could not do until I had some standard of Truth or righteousness because we can battle up here as long as you want talking about choices or opinions and it really doesn't make a difference if we all have our own opinions, but I'm in that's great. But until we have some kind of standard or truth it really we can't come up with any conclusions. So for me personally, I sought out that standard and it's a Christian that became the Bible that I think that's significant in that Jesus himself said that I am the way the truth and the life and no man can come to me except through him and 2nd Timothy verse 3 16 chapter 3 verse 16 says all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching reproof correction and for training in righteousness that the man of God may be adequate and complete it. So that's where I've drawn my resources in that context. I'll prevent my sources tonight. The first thing that I would like to talk about is is this really life and the scientific view is been presented now bring more of a moralistic you and that I would assert that God indeed knows us before. We are born Psalm 139 verse 13 through 16 States for the loudest for my inward parts that it's weave me in my mother's womb. I'll give thanks to thee for I am fearfully and wonderfully made wonderful. I die Works in my soul knows it very well. My friend was not getting from me when I was made in secret and skillfully rot in the depths of the earth nine eyes have seen my unformed substances. And in that book where all the my days written and that's where a Dane for me. When is that? There was not one of them for the more in Jeremiah 1:5 we see that before I formed you in the womb. I knew you before you were born. I consecrated you Isaiah 49 vs 1 and 5 sin. The Lord had called me from the womb for the war of my mother has he made mention of my name before me from the womb to be his servant. So I would say even our days perhaps are numbered perhaps we can be consecrated for a plan. I believe that God does know us before we are born. Also, I believe that God has placed a spirit within an embryo and we see this student Psalm 104 vs. 29 When down does take us to weigh their breath they die and return to dust when thou Dost send us forth. Thy Spirit they are created in James 2 verse 26 East 8th the body without the spirit is dead since it's clear that this fetus or embryo is alive. It must have a spirit therefore. I would assert that. This child is not only alive, but it has a spiritual life as well. Big deal. This is like any value. I would say that yes indeed. It does one. I would assert that children are indeed a gift of God Psalm 123 States Lo children are a Heritage from the Lord in the fruit of the womb is his reward. And finally, I think we're all familiar with this verse John 3:16. I believe that Jesus died for that infants for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish but you have eternal life. I believe that that infants is valuable enough for Christ to die for it. Just as he would die for me. And I would even like to make a special point about handicapped children to form on deformities these two. I believe that God has a special love and a special plan for their lives Exodus 4 verse 11 states and the Lord said to him to be most who has made man's mouth who makes him dumb or deaf or seeing or blind is it not I the Lord Isaiah 45 verses 9 through 11 states won't see him who strives with his maker in Earthen vessel with The Potter Knows the Clay say to him that fashion said, what are you making or what is your work with? No handles won't do him to says to a father. What are you beginning or to a woman with? What are you Intervale? This is the Lord the Holy One of Israel and his maker. Will you question me about my children or command me concerning the work of my hands and deed? I believe God has a special plan for children, even if they are deformed or handicapped. So how does this all connect to abortion? I guess it comes in Exodus when the laws given down in and simply stated down shalt not kill. We know in our hearts and I believe that it is written in our hearts that we know the law that is stated in Romans. I don't think we have enough time to go through it. But we do have the law written on our hearts and I believe that people know that when they are going to board especially the women that they have committed a violent crime. I believe it the spirit convicts them that have guilt and anguish and despair and deal with depression and kind of nation. And this is the the real tragedy that I see with women who are going through abortion because I don't think they realize that they're not counsel beforehand not only the spiritual ramifications that the physical or the emotional ramifications of having an abortion. I don't think anybody would agree that abortion is safe. I don't think anybody review that abortion is emotionally easy. I think it's very difficult and very painful thing to justify. So I believe that the mothers are definitely suffering I'm who is telling who is telling them about this who's willing to support them or stand with them or give them Council before they go through this what is 9 months to 75 years of dealing with pain and And bitterness and self-hate and Suicidal Thoughts is the abortion clinic. They're giving the council at our church. Is there helping women to make a decision? I would ask you about this who would stand with them and I personally believe the only person that they will stand with them is Jesus and I believe that there are many women here who have had abortions and I guess I give a message of Hope for you and I believe that that's half the battle for us as Christians is to offer a message of Hope to women who not only are pregnant people who have had abortions through repentance and forgiveness. Jesus is more than willing to build a new life. I believe God is in the business attorney mistakes into Miracles. I seen it done of my own life. I'd like to end this with a short testimony if I made this is of a woman. Her name is Kathleen Kathy Buck lounges in Brooklyn Center Minnesota flying to New York 1500 miles from my home all alone. The puffy clouds bright sun and perfect. You need a depressed mean I felt Doom was facing me. I was being compelled to carry this thing through to save face with my family and my friends and I resented them for making me do it. I knew I had life in me. I felt full with it as I rode the taxi to the abortion clinic. I felt as though this time life was touching me was trying to make me recognize its presence and maybe even love it enough to turn back but I followed through is it a boy or girl? Will this hurt him? Is this really the right thing to do or God? Help me I lay in a table waiting in line with a sixteen-year-old a 14 year old and others as I left the clinic 3 hours later with a sheet of instructions. I felt relieved. I was certain that I could go home and return to life is normal. I spent that are the morning in LaGuardia Airport in summer. Sleeping bag and I cleaned up in and change and close but still I felt dirty. I thought it was strong enough to cope with anything in his life on 29 for me. I kept pushing thoughts and guilt down into the empty pit within me. I moved with my family hoping to start fresh and I did with the same old weaknesses in problems. I told talk to my pastor who told me it was. Okay. Everyone told me it was okay, but I didn't feel okay. I hated myself and was haunted with thought he'd be a year old now. I wonder what color hair he had. I never let Guardian I searched for him. But I felt I had to prove myself worthy and I tried harder to prove myself. I went through a bad marriage and I she goes finally one day the mercies of Heaven came down upon me his love will be Christ overpowered me and I knew that he forgave me I went through pendants for all my wrongs and he literally turned my sorrow into Joy. I read the scripture in Psalm 139:16 your eyes. My unformed body all the days ordained for me written in your book before one of them came to be I knew that God held in his arms. The little one I never Allowed myself to hold incense have soul often long for my nightmares and guilt washed away is God told me in his love that none of his children are created in vain and time has no hold over the impact their lives have an eternity my story and success many and in suicide depression and bitterness. Where was the information I needed about a better way the encouragement to go through with the pregnancy. Where was the friend who knew a different number a Pregnancy Crisis Center with abortion Alternatives. Where was the pastor the counselor whom I needed to tell me repent and be forgiven for your murderous in where was the friend to tell me Jesus loves you. Let me take let him take your hurts away. I pray that those who read the story can answer here here. I am ladies and gentlemen students and professors. Where are you?