(00:00:00) The bull by the Twin Cities offices of Citibank citicorp providing Financial Services to the world since 1812 very briefly the weather forecast for the area calls for sunny skies across the state today with just a slight chance of a shower or thunderstorm in the north highs today will range from the low 80s in the North to the low 90s in the southwest. It'll be mostly cloudy tonight and tomorrow with a good chance of thunderstorms in the north and west tonight and in the east and south tomorrow lows tonight in the 50s and 60s and highest tomorrow low 70s to mid-80s Twin Cities Sunny with a high of 85 to 90 today tonight. There's a 30 percent chance of showers after midnight and a 50 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms during the day tomorrow. This noon we're going to talk about one of the more prominent Regional news stories of this summer the proposed mega mall and Convention Center in Bloomington. It's a one-point three billion dollar project that would be developed by a Canadian firm triple five Corporation Governor perpich decided to back the project after visiting something similar in Edmonton Canada and some state legislators will be going there later this week to guests join me this noon to answer your questions about this project done growing is president of the Bloomington Chamber of Commerce and John borchardt a professor of geography from the University of Minnesota. Gentlemen, welcome. Thank you for coming in. Thank you. Thank you. Well on the phone lines here in just a couple of minutes for listener questions, but maybe to get things started. I might ask you how much additional economic activity you think this project will generate down Grand. Well, they're a lot of projections about this. Let me state from some of the information they have provided to us. Today Minnesota generates approximately 25 million tourists per year. They're projecting that our facility will draw another 11 million tourists per year that compares to Disneyland which draws about 10 to 11 million tourists per year and Disney World in Orlando generates about twenty four million tourists per year in economic terms of they're saying Minnesota could experience a grand total of two to three billion dollars of new money flowing into our economy. Listen only be from tourists, but also the new jobs that would be created as a result of this type of activity what hard evidence is there for this the only hard evidence that we can draw off of this point is the Edmonton experience and those of us who have had the opportunity to take a look at it can see that it is having a tremendous impact anomic impact up there. They estimate that about 80% of their traffic for that mall right now comes from outside their region in terms of retail sales. I know there's a lot of concern about that. But the all the all the malls around they're doing well, but they they tell us and we verified this at they do about 50 percent more per square foot in retail sales in Southdale does here in the Twin Cities and Southdale as most people know ranks very high in the country as far as the amount of dollars that they produce on a square foot basis. John borchardt. What is your general perspective on this project? Is it make sense to you? (00:03:12) Well, if If those 11 million tourists come and if they come from outside the Upper Midwest. And with some reasonable multipliers you can you can make these numbers I come out about where they're supposed to be. I I don't know about the 25 million tourists done. I think you have to separate the the Upper Midwest part of that business from from the rest of it in order to talk about jobs that are added. I think if he's if you if you invade the Upper Midwest part of the traffic, you're you're probably taking people away from some place in order to put them here. I don't know what the outside number would be but it would be much less than the 25 million (00:04:08) the central controversy about all this of course is the convention center Why must a Convention Center be part of this why couldn't you hear the convention center in Minneapolis has a Minneapolis folks want and have this fantastic deal out there and let people go to it. If they want the triple five Corporation feels that in order to generate the kinds of dollars that they want to happen in this facility that a Convention Center becomes a very important element in Edmonton, for example, the Certain people wish they could tear down their current convention center and put it on the site of the of the West Edmonton Mall. And the reason for that is that they're starting to see a major increase in their convention business, but there's a lot of groups and associations that would prefer to have the convention center right on site similar to what you have in Anaheim a couple blocks from Disneyland and Orlando just a few blocks away from the Disney World complex. And so it would be much more convenient for the meeting groups to be right there. So they can enjoy the amenities that go with a facility of this type. Mmm, John borchardt you think that if there's this convention center in Bloomington and the mall, it will be a third downtown and essentially destroy the economic activity in the central cities. (00:05:20) Well, if if it pulls 11 or 12 million visitors a year. it from outside the Upper Midwest presumably then it would add to what we now have it would add close to the end of that 10 million or so if it is 10 or 11 million out of 11 or 12 if it And if those people spend an average of say $100 a visitor per visit on retail sales as opposed to other things, then you could probably generate the retail volume and the hotel business and all the rest of it without cannibalizing anything that's here now, but if you if you don't do that, then you have to look around other places for the numbers. (00:06:27) Done. I'll give you a chance to respond. But I want to get the phone numbers out. So people can begin calling with questions in the Minneapolis st. Paul area. If you have a question about this project for our two guests, you can call two two seven six thousand 2276 thousand in Minneapolis. And st. Paul in other parts of Minnesota. The toll-free number is 1-866-560-4440 talking to students about the big mall and Convention Center that has been proposed for Bloomington Don Grana comment about the doctor. Just tying their retail part of this discussion in Edmonton. There was a there was an adjustment period of six months to a year for the region to adjust to this new influx of retail and they are finding now that the malls in the immediate vicinity interest around the rest of the community are expanding their downtown is starting to really expand and doing very well. In fact the Grammys Ian's themselves just Suddenly were selected over Oxford to be the be the developer of the 100% area for Downtown Edmonton, and they're going in with a 600 million dollar project including a very major new Eaton's department store. The downtown is coming back you go in there downtown. It's much like our downtown's are screens all over the place expanding and growing and has just brought to naught this alone again, but has caused all kinds of new economy for the area in this just spins off many times. So hopefully we have the same kind of experience. It's, you know, it's a dice roll. I suppose sometimes to I do want to emphasize. The telephone lines are open. We have completely dark Bank of phones at the moment. So if you have a question about this Bloomington convention center and Mall project for John borchardt from the University of Minnesota or down grown from the city of Bloomington when you can give us a call to to 76 thousand 2276 thousand in the Twin Cities. John borchardt you think there is such a thing as too much development all at one time. I mean look at the development that has gone on in both Minneapolis. And st. Paul. We have the World Trade Center just at this very moment. Even as we speak being built right across the street from our studios here might it not be a better idea to find out if that is a roaring success than going ahead with some other big new project. (00:08:49) well the question whether it's too much development, I guess really has to be answered in the marketplace. The in terms of retail space you could probably make a pretty good argument right now that the market is is pretty well saturated in the Twin Cities metropolitan area in terms of office space. It's somewhat overbuilt at the moment, excuse me, and the problem of course always is to take the projections for the next few years and figure out what they're going to do to the vacancy rate. And since it takes several years to build a project. They're always planning against these projections because if you if you wait until everything's full to build the next round, then you're always under built if you build the next round speculatively, then you always tend to be overbuilt and I don't think you can And the city in the country or in the world anytime that isn't at the moment either over Builder under built. Nothing is ever exactly where it's supposed to be. (00:10:11) Okay, Don Grand. Do you want to comment on that and we'll take some listener questions? Why would tend to agree with with John think to you have to look at what causes this type of development to take place in within the specific market place as we look at this project that's being proposed again with large influx of tourists. One of the one of the things that really appeal to them about this particular site was the fact that it is just five minutes from the international airport and you take a look at the new office growth that we've had out in an arc City the last few years and look at the types of firms that are moving into it. It's there seems to be a larger influx of Flux Of firms coming in from outside the market area larger influx of new firms that are tied to International Trade. We've had a natural expansion of services because it's such a strong growth area. And of at least in our area we seem to at this point in time be filling up those new Office Buildings fairly fast, and I know that's not true all over the entire market area here, but (00:11:12) fortunately we really Suburban rated vacancy rate is still higher than the (00:11:15) downtown and in parts of the Suburban now, if you take the Suburban vacancy rate in Bloomington would be much lower than you might have. If you get little bit further west around the suburbs and I think we again like to attribute that to the fact that there are people that do enjoy being very close to that airport. You take that airport away from us and I think our situation would change if you put your headphones on we'll get to our listener questions and a number of them are waiting your first go ahead please our guests are listening. Hi. I guess I don't know a lot about this project. But what I've read and what I've heard, it just really kind of irks me. I wonder where our priorities are and I wonder how many more stores do we need in the Twin City areas? I mean, I think we have everything that we can possibly want and I just wonder how many more stories how many more malls are we going to have done? Well again, I think you have to look at the type of activity that is being built in conjunction with this facility, which naturally then draws a lot of people to the marketplace and in the majority of the people that would be coming to that facility will be coming from outside the marketplace and while they are they're experiencing that so-called Fantasy World experience. The indoor Lakes the roller coasters, the merry-go-rounds the zoo's the skating rinks all the submarine. What a submarine we can't forget our submarines. That's right. Again, if the experience is similar to what it has been in Edmonton and that's again the only only experience we can draw off of because that's really the only other one of this type where you have a combined retail entertainment complex all Under One Roof if we have the same kind of experience. You're going to there's not going to be problem with more stores because those those stores should do reasonably. Well, and from what we've been told there's going to be a lot of new types of stores and new types of opportunities that are going to be available not only to our visitors, but also to the people in this region. (00:13:13) Well, this is a really I think a really very important question. if you take the situation to present moment. There is no significant amount of new store opening going on in the metro area. At least not in the net their new things and old things closing and so on but there's very little net gain at the moment. if you project the population out for the next 10 or 15 years you get a perhaps 300,000 or so increase That means that you generate then some significant amount of additional trade. There's a real question I think as to how much of that increase will go to the new Bloomington mall and whether that's enough to generate two and a half or three New South Wales without eating into what we now have I haven't seen any Market estimates on this. I have some of my own guest:we guesstimate sonnet, but I haven't seen anything. It's been thoroughly researched there probably is something the Edmonton experience. I think one has to be very cautious about how far he he generalize has that to the Twin Cities. The question is how many malls are comparable to Southdale Ridgedale, Burnsville. I were there in that area when need your amazing Brothers started their West Edmonton project. I'm not sure about the answer. My impression is that there weren't really any there were some were comparable to the first phase of Rosedale, but nothing like Softail or Ridgedale or Burnsville. There should have been three or four since Edmonton is the size of half the size of Twin Cities roughly the metro area the Metro Market So it seems to me that it's possible that the germ Asians were moving into a quite different kind of a situation there than they are here. (00:15:40) John borchardt is a professor of geography at the University of Minnesota with him as Don growing president of the Bloomington Chamber of Commerce. We're talking about the project that's being discussed for the city of Bloomington. Lots of listeners waiting with questions your next. Go ahead please hello. Hello. Yeah. I'd like to make a comment from two standpoints. I go to two to three international conventions a year. I've been going. Oh for the past 20 years and cities like Reno and Houston and Boston and I want to just address it from a convention goers standpoint is that myself and people that I talk to at these conventions prefer a variety of things to do we hate to get locked up in a sterile situation. And I know I've been the ones at Disney World. I've been to Grand American whatever it is out. Our and renal and it sounds great. You're going to have all this stuff Under One Roof, but people are individuals and I always hate to get trapped in a situation where it's been pre-planned that you're going to have something like a shopping mall to go to you walk in and you see one be don't you seen them all and in my experience a downtown is a lot more interesting people that want to go to churches can go to different churches people that want to go to massage parlors and you want a massage parlors invariably this pre-planning by some group which you would get with them all ends up with a very boring and a sterile convention. And secondly, I'd like to say from someone who's been the Edmonton probably 30 times in their life comparing Edmonton to Minneapolis, you might as well can tune compare Ice Station Zebra up in the Arctic. There's nowhere else to go. They're 200 miles north of Calgary and Calgary's 200 miles north of anything else. I mean, it's Not even directly relatable at all. All right, the downtown Minneapolis, you know stagger the mine. Just hey buddy. Thanks for your thanks for your comments. Let's get some reaction from our guest John borchardt start with you this time. (00:17:50) Well, I think that that he makes one point to me that is very important. And that is the complexity of describing the audience or the patrons at a convention. We just finished the All-Star Game and if you were watching that I don't mean I'm watching the game on TV, but I mean watching the visiting pattern people are scattered all over the metro area and just before that we had what was it they estimated 20 or so 20 30 thousand guests at the All-Star Game just just a week or so before we had about 20,000 for the national barbershop quartet it convention. And some of these people wanted to had more money in one to stay downtown and one of the two downtown's had a or out on the Strip at a high priced hotel others were worth the Thrifty Scott and at the six and all sorts of places as far out as the Metropolitan Community Zone carries you and they were commuting like many of the rest of us into the convention center. And I think he makes a point it's a very complex pattern he described his taste and we could probably get a hundred people here and they could describe a hundred different sets of (00:19:05) days. Well, what about Don Grand the idea of being sort of locked into one physical area. Now, of course, you're not forbidden from going out somewhere else, but as a practical matter given the agenda of conventions and giving all given all that stuff. The odds are most people probably will stay right around I would empathize with this person because quite frankly every convention I've gone to I felt kind of locked in regardless of where it is because your schedule is busy and they always have things well planned for you and whether those activities are downtown or touring A mansion or looking at a variety of things so I can understand just a couple of additional comments the greasy ins when they started doing their planning for this concept about 10 11 years ago. They took the time and the trouble and spent a lot of money to travel around the world to attempt to determine why people go to different spots around the world. In other words. What is the attraction of a Paris? What is the attraction of a Piccadilly Square? What's the attraction of a Disneyland was the attraction of a Disney World? Why do people go to Bourbon Street and all these attractions and what they and they also knew that in the cold north of Edmonton and I disagree with this person. I think Edmonton is a beautiful city. I've been exposed to it a couple times recently and I if he hasn't been there recently you'll see how a fantastic change because that town is really exciting and vibrant a lot of great things going on, but they were concerned about is trying attempting to develop a family type of thing where if not only your local families, but your tourist families convention families. Have a place where they could go and enjoy themselves while your mother or father or whoever's at the convention and their their facility as far from a sterile facility and I can agree There Are Places you go. They are very sterile you walk in this place. There are fountains or waterfalls. It's trims are brass. There's you know, there's every time you turn around. There's a new piece of excitement going on and if a person wants to take advantage of that they can if they don't they can do their other thing. We are we're hopeful that these people that do come in here will want to enjoy our beautiful downtown's because we are blessed in this area to have two very fine downtown's we're blessed to have them in a tank as a Still Waters all the other amenities that are in the stereo and with a size of conventions that might be attracted to this type of facility. They're not all going to be how they're going to be spread out through the metropolitan areas. Mr. Borchardt knows to and we've had some reason large conventions in this region the three cities and some of the other Suburban communities have cooperated and worked very hard to be sure. These people are Here to provide them with the things they're looking for (00:21:35) which three cities (00:21:37) Bloomington st. Paul (00:21:38) Minneapolis. I thought maybe you many die now (00:21:40) or you know, how Noble wood seeing this week. We work very closely with Minneapolis st. Paul other times when they need our help there are times when we need their help and the three bureaus have had a strong relationship for a long time. Yes, we do compactive Lee compete on some things but when you're dealing with a big things like the All-Star Game the Super Bowl that we talk about the Lions conventions the Shriners the National Education Association, we work hand in hand. That's the street Riders who are in this last weekend, if he were driving around and saw these little cars floating around again, that was a joint effort of the three bureaus. They just happen to headquarter in Bloomington this year the last time the headquarters st. Paul and we take turns working with that group. So we do a lot of great things together ready. All right, we have a lot of listeners with questions about the Bloomington convention center and mall and we'll take your question next. Go ahead, please. I don't mind facility of this sort being built if it is privately. But I do object very strongly of government is using the taxpayers money to build it because government in my view has no business competing with Private Industry and directing economic resources. Therefore. I want to know if any of my tax money will go into this because of this project becomes a white elephant the full burden will fall on the financial resources of the state's tax payers. Don't groan. I think you mean tackle that one. Well, I like the words that he used privately financed because that's a very key with this project. He just the we do need to pry a little bit of subsidy up front the developers a project that within a few years the convention center will be self-supporting. So there may be some need to help underwrite some of those costs and one of the one of the reasons for that the size of conventions that you'd attract to that facility or even downtown for that matter. They're already booked five six seven years out. So there's going to be a lag time in their of three to four years where it may not be, you know, as full as we would hope it would be But once it's once it's fully operational and we're on the mainstream of the with the convention groups. We have no reason to believe that it will not be a money maker to convince two or three of the convention centers in this country that do make money would be it would include the Anaheim facility and what include the facility by Disney World and also includes Las Vegas, and it's because of the types of attractions and that do draw large numbers of people to those areas that they are making money. There's been some press lately about Las Vegas not doing very well. We've seen our projections for next year and they're projecting an eight million dollar profit off of their Convention Center next year. Can the state of Minnesota afford that up front of the we had a projection from the finance department today saying that the revenue shortfall in this current biennium range between hundred and thirty-four and what was it eight hundred eleven million dollars, depending on how the economy goes. Well, what we're asking for is really quite small compared to what this is also going to generate for the state. If this in fact does live up to what the Consultants say, it will do. There will be somewhere between 250 and 300 million new dollars for the state of Minnesota from income taxes corporate taxes license has other kinds of fees that are generated from this type of facility not in this is direct benefit. This does not count. Then the other incomes that are going to come from the jobs that are going to spin off from that facility and how much will The Upfront investment be by the state by the as far as investment upfront. None will lead The Upfront funding that you mentioned earlier. We really don't know that number for sure yet because I also serve in the Bloomington port Then we're finalizing those development contracts right now with the triple five people and once that's done then we have a little better idea. But it's again. It's a relatively small amount of money and I think it's less than what Minneapolis has been asking for to help carry their Convention Center (00:25:23) the two or three hundred million new dollars that just offhand strikes me as a rather large number because it adds up to maybe 100 10 20 percent or more of the what would be the total revenue generated by an optimistic forecast of what what what happened here. I don't know whether that much of a little fun of the public coffers are not but we can see the numbers one thing that I think we need to think about and I don't know I haven't seen much of any thought given to it yet on this question of public expenditure. Is some potential indirect costs. I want to see airport, for example, if if you generate the volume of visitors that it will take to support the retailing in two and a half South Dale's without cannibalizing the present sentries without going through all the numbers. It turns out that that that extra 12 to 24 million passengers a year. And again, they've got to come from outside the region and not going to generate any new any new Revenue. We're just eating ourselves and if they come from outside the region I suppose it's a pretty it's almost certain the most don't come by air. And if you put that traffic into the airport, you wind up with somewhere between a hundred and fifty and a hundred and seventy-five percent of capacity that the Metropolitan Airport commission is planning for in the year 2000. So one of the things that seems to me we better be thinking about is a very substantial enlargement the airport or perhaps back to the old question of Ham Lake and Rosemount again, in which case maybe we ought to build a Convention Center at one of those places that's facetious, but you can see the complexity that you get into another thing is the General Highway transportation system. I think no matter where we put this thing the costs are not going to be so much. The direct subsidies are going to be the the ongoing need to maintain a very efficient very well-developed Transportation Network connecting all of these centers. So once he's always been a multi-centered metropolis and it'll continue to be and that's their there are other things I could comment on along the same line. We will get to them. (00:27:55) All right. Did you want to make a brief response you can we actually move on. Let's move on. We got questioners make sure do. All right. Let's take you next. Go ahead, please you're on the air. Yeah, my name is Dave Wiggins. I'm calling from Minneapolis. I think we can all agree that this facility. Lady of build has to fit into a very complex environment and that any environmental impact assessment has to cover a pretty broad range of issues. I was wondering if any consideration has been given to how it might be affecting the nearby Fort Snelling State Park and the whole Fort Snelling Mendota historic district and in general will any effort be made to integrate educational elements and make any effort to tie this great Recreational facility into the real history of the area. You know, we're going to try to coordinate with local museums. Well, they're being a natural history at the zoo element of it there. Is it all going to be a fantasy land? All right, Donnie one tackle and I'll take this into different parts first the mr. Wiggins was talking about the environment impact one thing Bloomington. Did we started doing this several years ago and it's kind of a hybrid and very Is we conducted a generic environmental impact study of that entire region not just the stadium property itself, but the 280 some Acres at that are tied in that total region to help us determine what kinds of development that area could support what kinds of traffic that area could support and that's all been completed. It's been approved by the PCA and so forth. Now this development and does go just a little bit beyond not much but some of that study did say But we are comfortable with what has happened and we're now pulling all those out and doing a review again to be sure that we do fit with all those requirements because we feel that's very important as far as tying in with Fort Snelling and some of the educational things one of the things that the triple 5 Corporation has done in Edmonton and they do plan to do down here is they are very high on education. They're all kinds of learning experiences the day we were up there. There are just numerous school buses of visiting the small not going to the stores and shops and so forth. But looking at the different kinds of educational things that have been set up in this mall complex, you can touch and feel while it for example the part of the tour which is over an hour long. Just that part of it goes down in the bowels of the facility so they can see the tanks were sea water is being made for these huge aquariums are where they can see how boilers work and how what what happens behind the scenes on this type of thing. They also have other one display where in that area oil is Big. We're young people can Actually work with with producing oil from the raw material and they can go through this kind of an experience and they do plan to do a lot of that type of thing down here. In fact a major part not a major part, but one of the one of the elements of this will be as Science and Space type of facility where young people will have the opportunity to have those kinds of educational experiences. And yes, they are concerned about tying in Fort Snelling and some of the other things that do surround that area. They're very excited about the proximity of the Minnesota Wildlife Refuge area because it's just a, you know, a very short walk and you can be on that trail system that is down in there such a very important part of our area. So you're going to find these people very very amenable to that type of thing. They are very conscious of that and and feel very strong about because again because they are such a strong family themselves. They look for those things that are going to be important to the family and not just like some say the Fantasyland sterile atmosphere. It's just that just happens to be a part of it. Don growing is president of the Bloomington Chamber of Commerce and also in the Studio's John borchardt. Professor of geography at the University of Minnesota has we continue talking about the Bloomington convention center and Mall Complex your next what's your question this afternoon? Yes, I'm from Winona Minnesota. And I guess what my problem is with the whole Twin Cities areas were kind of tired of paying for it and paying for their roads and date streets and so on but I think the biggest problem that exists is your sewage treatment or the lack of it and my idea would be that not a brick can be turned in the Twin Cities until they've got this mess cleaned up. You've got an open sewer running out of the Twin Cities and it runs right through southern Minnesota and we're kind of sick of it. I think they should put a green belt around the outside of what exists now is the Twin Cities and tell him you can't build with him. I don't know hundred and fifty two hundred miles. And say, you know, you've got to have an area where you were you just can't pollute anymore (00:32:44) John borchardt. You don't want to go out 200 or you'll include Winona if you stay if you stay inside a hundred you're okay the problem, of course with it was the Greenville to see who you going to tell it's impossible even in clinic closed system like the Soviet Union to control a green belt around Moscow and I don't know how we do it in this country around Washington are or anywhere else, you know, I could think of ways to do it, but I wouldn't want to be the guy who had to try to carry them out the the the the point that the this fellow makes about the the sewer expenditures and the obligations though is I think pretty relevant and it's not an easy one to deal with for people who are involved in public. Fairies in the state in the cities, but it is true that that the Twin Cities area is a relatively High tax metropolitan area. So in the National scene, it's not the highest. Although it's pretty high. It has a tremendous amount of money invested both in the private sector and the public and the existing physical plant and a lot of that is not yet amortized number of the newest the new shopping centers are not paid off the metropolitan area the local governments in the cities and the counties have one of the highest public debts per capita among local governments in the United States. They're double some of the other competing metropolitan areas. If you if you take that debt load and lay it against the print the part of the projected population growth in this area. It looks even even higher compared with places like Dallas or or Miami and son. So there's a real question here as to how much we're allocating for the indirect costs of any large new project like this in terms of Highways sewers reduce taxes and places that many municipalities that contain some of the competing shopping malls that are on amortized and likely to be injured by this and the question of what our priorities are in terms of finishing up the sewer projects gentleman Mansions. I wish it were true that the rest of the state is helping us is paying our way on this that happens not to be true the subsidies flowing in On the hole in the other direction this is doesn't seem to be widely recognized but it is you have a but for example 10% of the highway Network that pays for the other 90% And most that 10% is in the metro area. That's the way it should be. I'm not saying it's bad but that's the way it is (00:35:55) the the question of the additional tax burden that would be placed on public facilities like the streets in the sewers and the airport and so on for for this project on growing. Can you comment quickly on that? Well, there's I think we take a look at the situation particularly highways as it exists today. We have we already have a problem without this facility. Oh sure. So the expenditures are going to be made anyway. Now that doesn't justify this type of thing, but I think as people look at the Highway Usage in that area. And again, the major major problems are your basic your rush hours. The people I will be arriving at this facility if they are coming by automobile will be arriving 1012 during the daytime for the most part of again if it's like it. Then we'll go home seven eight o'clock nine o'clock ten o'clock at night. So the major traffic from that area will be away from the major rough rush hours. So it should not create a major new problem. Now, the problem is you have just larger numbers. But again, we had anticipated this anyway is when we were looking at what that are, you might generate initially we're looking at somewhere around twenty three to twenty four thousand jobs in that area when it's fully developed four five six years from now, even if we had gone with eight or ten new major Office Buildings and some specialty retail, we would have probably exceeded those numbers as far as total employment, but then would have been dumping them on the highways at the snip five o'clock at night. Like everybody else's or bringing them in the morning at 7:00 or 7:30. Like everybody else's so as far as actual impact of this probably has the less impact of any of the proposals we looked at on that whole system. Okay, let's move along to some more listeners with questions. Go ahead, please you're on the air. Yeah. Well first I'd like to say that dr. Borchardt was the instructor of my very first class in the university in the early 50s. And he sounds is sharp today as he did back there. I have a couple quick questions and older given the state of world affairs. I think it's inevitable that we just about count on periodically having energy crunches energy crises of anywhere from 6 months to a couple years duration in the future and I was wondering this sounds like a very energy intensive project. I mean when it's once it's on the ground and running and still it sounds like very energy intensive project. That was wondering what would happen. When you try to apportion the supply of energy between a project like this and the rest of the metropolitan area. My second question is if this is extremely successful, it sounds to me like you might have the nucleus of a third downtown area in the metro area in general and I was wondering what implications there are in that if it happens for Richfield and even the first Reaches the South Minneapolis, you know in the changing of those areas from being Primary Residential to being something else. Okay, Don groan. Why don't you come in first on the energy question the triple five Corporation people themselves are concerned about this because they've had to live through energy crisis as much as anybody else and they are as a part of their study looking at what kind of a facility they can put internally where they can recycle into energy forms of the The waste that's generated in a facility like that. So they are going to be addressing that so yes, it probably is a concern maybe long range, but they are addressing it right up front so that hopefully they'll be using recyclable sources of energy to me to help recyclable materials to help generate energy third downtown implications. I don't know, you know again that's that's a fear. This is a again a different type of facility. I would think they're rich Fields as they lay relook their future and some areas that they probably have to be recycling Andre Andre doing would definitely benefit from this the people that live in Richfield and Minneapolis and see use these examples will do will benefit from the tremendous amount of new jobs that will be available in that area. So hopefully this type of facility does you know, really it's a third downtown but not designed to compete with the other downtown's. I want you. Hope people just kind of put that in the back of their minds because it's it's a different type of facility. John borchert wouldn't have an impact on residential neighborhoods. Do you think nearby? (00:40:13) I think inevitably it will have any major development has if they don't have the do downtown's are expanded that'll happen. The question of course is what impact it depends on how people want to invest their money and what the styles are it could result in increasing numbers of apartment houses. It could develop it would result in in blight of surrounding single family residences or some of both But it's honor have an impact. You can't you can't spend a billion dollars in real estate development without having some impact. You know, that's what perhaps a twentieth of always all we've spent since World War II in the suburbs. So if somebody says going to have impact I guess the obvious answer is yes, the question of what what the impact will be got only knows the question the down of the multiple downtown's I shouldn't be quite as quite as Cavalier and saying the question goodness only knows because it's possible, you know, if the Metro Council and the Bloomington Planters and the in the state highway department and the Metro Waste board get together on this we can have something to say about it. The question the multiple downtown's I don't find really much of a problem. I that is it it's obviously going to be a problem for a number of people but but there's no precedent saying what to do about it. We've always had multiple centers in this metropolitan area. If you look at retailing we have certainly eight or ten right now, there are major Centre. He's one of the dude downtown's incidentally is one of the smaller ones the other downtown is one of the larger ones but we have 8 or 10. If you look at it major employment centers major concentrations of jobs in this metropolitan area. We have at least ten or a dozen two of which of the two downtown's the two largest. Although if you take the whole strip from the airport to the Edina interchange, it's it's as large. Downtown Minneapolis and as an employment center So starting with Pig's Eye and Franklin steel and one decided to have his his Saloon to had a navigation and the other one decide having Sawmill at the water power side. We've always been divided and the thing that has that has made the place function as a metropolis has always been a high quality relatively expensive transportation system and we have to keep this in mind and you don't get that without some sort of Metropolitan cooperation at all levels at all times on all of these major facilities, Bloomington isn't selling Bloomington. They're selling the metropolitan (00:43:21) area in the world. If you look at the at the distance of these various centers one from the other Southdale is a long way from Ridgedale is a long way from Brooke Brookdale. Is that what it is? This one in Bloomington will be very close to South Delhi and isn't there some danger that it would just The software will just dry up (00:43:45) normal just dry up. It depends in the first place of course is location in Bloomington is Anna is in something of a whole it's there's there's relatively little population or right around it and never will be but that doesn't matter, you know necessarily. The question of what happens to the competing centers is really a question of how much outside new extra Regional business. This Bloomington proposal is able to generate if they can generate a volume business comparable to Las Vegas then Southdale or Burnsville our South Town or Highland would be able to keep theoretically about the same volume they have now or perhaps even a little more. I don't know what would happen to the character of it if you dump this new center in the middle, but if the center starts to run into trouble in terms of attracting 11 or 12 million visitors a year or even sex If it starts to look more like some of the other major Urban convention centers in the United States like Atlanta are New Orleans, then they're going to have to either they're not going to get anywhere near as big as they say they're going to yet or they're going to be scratching for retail trade where they're going to be sitting with a lot of vacancy and at that point we'd better have our powder dry. (00:45:16) 15 minutes before one o'clock John borchert professor of geography from the University of Minnesota and Don Grand president of the Bloomington Chamber of Commerce are talking about the big Bloomington convention center and Mall project lot of listeners with questions will take you next. Go ahead, please thank you much of the discussion this afternoon has been about the retail competition that the Marvel offer and I'm wondering if Edmonton had anything like two major zoos of large Valley Fair and a first-rate science museum and what those facilities will experience with the building of something like this super mall, and I'm particularly concerned about there being a zoo in the back because the zoo The whole part of having zoos nowadays. It's an extremely professional item in which a lot of care and a lot of Professional Knowledge has to go into a zoo. I'm just I'm really curious about what they're going to do about that those zoos. Thank you. Okay first there is not a Valley Fair type of complex in Edmonton and quite frankly. We're not that concerned about it because you use a stadium example. There's a lot of people in this Marketplace at still like to be outside and I think they will take advantage of the valley fairs in the Canterbury Downs in those places. The zoo arrangement in Edmonton is again first don't visualize that you're going to have a Como size zoo or a Minnesota type Zoo. It's a much smaller scale. It's more zoo animals scattered. All throughout. The facility in cages in Edmonton is an exchange program with a zoo itself and the zoo actually provides the servicing and that and the taking care of the animals. So and they're hoping that they can set up that type of an arrangement. Here to so the animals do get the proper care and all those kinds of things again. They're very sensitive about that science museums up again these people plant some kind of a cultural center as a part of this but in Edmonton, they have their own tour buses and and they do take people to these other amenities throughout the throughout the city of Edmonton because they don't want to be a World by themselves. They want to be promoting and helping all these things out. In fact, if the triple five Corporation is the largest contributor to the Arts and Edmonton last year. All right, 12 minutes before one will take another caller. Go ahead, please there you are. Hello. Yeah, I from St. Louis Park and they are you sure are yeah, I'm from st. Louis Park and I don't want to get involved in the squabble between Minneapolis and Bloomington by a very interesting point. I noticed with this morning. Mr. Manning announced running for governor. He is course from the Rural area and one of these Moral Majority types and one of the things that disturbs me is that every time Minnesota tries to extend the bar hours. It gets to feed it. There is no specificity in the United States. That's a major Convention Center that has bar our closings before 2 a.m. And I have a feeling that the politicians are deceiving the people in these proposals for conventions Hall unless we have at least a two o'clock closing time in this state. We are not going to attract any conventions because the facts prove otherwise, no other city has big and conventions is earlier than to am. I like some comments on that. It's always fun to get a new issue will just start them earlier you have any information on that John (00:48:56) borchardt? I don't know the geography. I don't have a mental map of closing hours. I wish I did have it sounds like it's being an interesting (00:49:02) map. Yeah. Minnesota is 1 1 a.m. And The Listener is correct and that most of our to it's something that In all the discussions we've been in we haven't even begun to discuss that is an issue at this point. And I don't know if it will be or not. Hmm hasn't come up with this point, you know. Alright more listeners are waiting and we'll move on quickly to the telephones. Go ahead. You're on the air. Thank you. I'm calling from Plymouth Minnesota. I assume that such a large facility would have to be utilized all year round in order to be profitable. So I'm curious to know if there are any plans to combat Minnesota's image as being the Frozen Wasteland in the wintertime and how will you get people from the South and the West come here for conventions with that kind of image that we seem to have do you anticipate there being a problem? Combating this image. This is one of the concerns that the people in Edmonton had when they started planning this Mega Mall in Edmonton and they are finding just the opposite. They are drawing more numbers in the wintertime than they are in the summertime because that again is a totally enclosed facility. Imagine with me. If you will going to this facility and sitting on a beach by the 10-acre into our Lake surfing waterskiing water sliding with with german-made sunlamps moving in the roof of the building from when the sun comes up in the morning to the Sun goes at down at night and getting your suntan. I'm just 30 below outside and which is a typical Super Bowl day. If I'm not mistaken. (00:50:33) Well the and of course Phoenix does well, we'll do the same thing when they build their Center. In fact right now, they make a lot of the fact that that you can go to Phoenix in July and go ice skating. That's right. So the problem will be to for Phoenix to compete with us in the wintertime and for us to compete with Phoenix in the summertime try all we need is one point three billion. (00:50:57) Well now 1.3 billion won't be a problem because these people are able to do it. In fact, their proposed advertising budget for this facility is larger than the state of Minnesota now spends advertising tourism. All right, we have another listener with a question. Go ahead please Minneapolis. I heard the gentleman from Bloomington say that the Edmonton Convention Center people wished that they had not build their Convention Center downtown and want to move it out to the West Edmonton Mall, which is 12 miles away up. I took the time to call up there a few minutes ago, and I asked them if they were planning on doing that and if they were disappointed about building where they built and the gentleman who I spoke with who is director of operations said it's the first he sort of that they opened their Convention Center two years ago. It was constructed at the same time as the West Edmonton Mall wasn't it's 12 miles away from it, and I'm wondering how he can make that statement that Edmonton Convention Center, people are anxious to move out to the suburbs when they're not I guess it's interesting. It's just like any other issue you can find the people you want to talk to and I'm sure you know the person that you talk to maybe correct the person I talk to up there when I was up there a told me just the opposite. So I guess we just have to deal with glue talk to. We have time for a couple more questions to to seven six thousand if you tried earlier and got a busy signal you might get through now and we might have time to get your question on the air to to 76 thousand in the Twin Cities. If you have a question for Don growing from the Bloomington Chamber of Commerce, or John borchardt from the University of Minnesota geography department on the Bloomington mall and Convention Center your next go ahead, please Hello. Hello. Yes. Yes, you're on. Oh, sorry. Yes. I am interested in hearing. Everybody's reaction seems like everybody has a little pet peeve the environmental so I'll worried about impact statements and some people that are antique kind of worried about too much materialism and Society are in society are criticizing the fact that although there's just another shopping mall. And personally, I think this whole project is too exciting and too good an idea and I just can see where the people in the Twin Cities are going to boot this one away. And because if you think about it, it says essentially a continuous development in other words, according to the Metro Council. It's well within the core areas though. It does pose a chance of developing a third Central Area as opposed to downtown Minneapolis and st. Paul but if you look at the jobs, it creates the excitement the potential for changing the image of Minneapolis. Look at it as a positive. But everybody's calling in and just knocking the whole idea. I've never heard so many negative thinkers in my life. I think if more people thought like this, we'd still be back in the caves and that's (00:53:55) Minnesota's lost its (00:53:57) is losing its excitement and it's progressiveness economically and my goodness, what are these people want to do go back and live in the the log cabins with the privy out back Minnesota was built on entrepreneurial guts and integrity. These people are just shocked me white. Why don't they take advantage of this? So wonderful offer from these Canadian developers? Okay. Let me just comment. I heard somebody this morning say if there were five states competing for this we'd be rolling out the red carpet. We would call a special session of the legislature to come up with one point two billion dollars to attract them like we did with a Saturn plant, but since these people picked a location now, everybody wants to pick at it, but thank you. We appreciate your call. All right five minutes before. For one we have time for a couple three more for Lucky. Go ahead. You're next. Yes. I wanted to sort of return to the bottom line of this issue with regard to the entertainment part of the complex. I don't understand if this is to be a real competitor with Disney World and Disneyland or if it's to be sort of an overgrown. I Endure Valley Fair. Another question is the demographics and the attraction of this particular part of the complex. My understanding is a lot of families just going on vacation not necessarily connected with the conventions will go to Disneyland Disney World. The Las Vegas thing has the gambling attraction. There's also the demographics of their rural what 11 million people in Florida 15 million easy distance in Southern California and both coasts their supporter of this I think was the Bloomington mayor said that they were on the edge of the country and we're centrally located but we are on the Northern Edge and I really think that Edmonton didn't have the same kind of competition. That's we do. All right, we have a lot you've given us a lot to chew on there without much time. So let's move quickly to our guests comments on that John borchardt. Maybe want to come in on some of that. (00:55:56) Well, I'm not an expert on these tourist attractions. I have long thought that that With the Rising Sun Belt population, we're developing numbers of the order of a hundred a hundred and fifty million Americans who in the normal course of events almost never see snow and (00:56:26) I would culturally deprived aren't (00:56:28) they? Absolutely and and and and I would think that that somebody will figure out at some point out of sell this kind of Attraction, but it can be in terms of many different things that are in, Minnesota. Beyond that I really wouldn't have no idea how this thing will compete with Disneyland or with with Disney World. All I know is that the promoters of it expected to do so, (00:56:59) okay. Let's take one more question briefly before we are out of time here. Go ahead, please you're next. Yes. I am. I grew up more or less a product of the times when all the shopping centers. I'm from Milwaukee originally in Milwaukee were growing up in the 50s when the Suburbia became the thing and the shopping center, the larger ones connected with it, and it seems to me in Milwaukee as and I've noticed up here. I've lived here for 10 years and other bigger cities. The downtown was sucked dry regardless it I can remember moving to st. Paul in 74 and it was like a ghost town now recently is come back and I just can't understand the mentality of building these large shopping centers and thinking not that they're going to deprive any metropolitan area of his thing it historically Proven that the that shopping centers have more or less made almost a galactic type city with a very small core and everybody bouncing around all over the metropolitan area. And I thank you sir. We're just about out of time. We'll get a brief comment from our hands before we have to leave done growing. Well, I guess there's a big difference and I think in the way that our development activities and our civic pride has been approached in this area. Fortunately. We've had the dedication of the downtown business communities in the surrounding area of met Council and so forth that have done much to be sure that our downtown's do survive in a state legislature and we are seeing them survive and they're playing different rules today than they played years ago years ago. They were the shopping center. Today's today. They are the financial marketing service centers. And this type of facility is not designed to deprive them of that activity and I'm afraid (00:58:36) they are also increasing is retail centers and we have a tremendous investment in them. And the risk in this thing is that you will cannibalize some of what's To end on amortized (00:58:48) and at that point we must end thank you both very much John borchardt professor of geography at the University of Minnesota Don growing president of the Bloomington Chamber of Commerce. Hello. This is Gary eichten inviting you to join us later this afternoon for MPR Journal today. Our cover story features some parents who are right in the middle of what's being called the home school debate MPR Journal 4:30 on rfm network 5:30 on thirteen Thirty a m-- in the Twin Cities, and that's midday today made possible by the Twin Cities offices of Citibank citicorp providing Financial Services to the world since 1812, Randy Johnson the engineer, this is Bob Potter. In the Twin Cities, mostly sunny with a high of 85 to 90 this afternoon right now. It's 82 degrees tonight. There's a 30% chance of showers and thunderstorms a 50% chance to moral. This is the news and information service of Minnesota Public Radio ksjn in Minneapolis. And st. Paul. It's one o'clock.