(00:00:00) We're not talking about hugging and kissing kids. I'm talking about people that sexually abuse in a way that we don't like to think about it. Anal sex oral sex vaginal sex any kind of sex you want to talk about using penises cucumbers bowling pins curling irons you name it scissors hammers wrenches anything you can use to stick in a kid. I've seen people do it and they do it day after day in home after home and in city after (00:00:31) City one out of every three American children under 13 is abused sexually according to Scott County Minnesota prosecutor Kathleen Morris Morris has tried some of the most bizarre cases reported in recent history. But as she notes only a fraction of all the abuse is ever reported as a crime in our legal system child sexual abuse only has a recent history. It's traditionally been viewed as something that takes place in the home a family problem and that indeed is where most Abuse of all types occurs, but perhaps part by extensive media coverage of The Sensational cases Morris says lately, there's growing acknowledgement. The problem can no longer Escape societies attention was the same (00:01:12) thing with drug abuse 10 years ago sex education 10 years ago. You didn't do that in the school system because you didn't want to talk about it. It was a family thing now in Minnesota almost every school system deals with sex education with drug education. We're now saying that if we're going to prevent sexual abuse of children, we have to start educating when children are (00:01:30) young speaking in Duluth recently in one of numerous such lecture. She delivers in the region Maura said education is the only real answer like children. She said adults have much to learn during the next hour. We'll examine what Morris says are prevailing beliefs and stereotypes about child molestation to see if they are as well founded as they are commonly held we learn about child sexual abuse in personal accounts from several victims, and we'll also hear from two convicted offenders. Minnesota may be isolated from some crimes and social problems that afflict this nation but the state is no exception when it comes to child sexual abuse a typical statistic comes from st. Louis County prosecutor Mark Reuben whose office handles cases from the city of Duluth as well as from largely rural Southern st. Louis County through the first week of June of this year. We have opened up 29 actually actually 30 complaints alleging acts of sexual abuse sexual assault against children 17 years and younger all of last year. We opened up only 40 files involving these types of cases 38 of them actually were prosecuted to were dismissed. So we're way ahead of last year's special investigations Campbell. (00:03:43) Yes, what about them (00:03:46) most cases that reach prosecutor Reubens office? Our first handled by the Duluth Police Department special investigations unit headed by Sergeant John Campbell. He says on a per capita basis abuse reports are as frequent here as anywhere else in the US and like elsewhere Campbell and Ruben note this growing willingness to report it. I don't know if it's that much more is taking place, but I know more of its being reported in the past. I think some of these things were going on, (00:04:12) but We kind of put them aside. We didn't talk about them. We didn't bring them out. I think we just kind of tried to hide (00:04:22) it when a lot of the publicity her mother cases around the country first started hitting the area. I think people felt that way that you know, that could never happen in this area. But now they've seen the people who have been convicted of these kinds of charges. There's no one pattern to sexual offender. We've seen people from all walks of life who have been charged and convicted of these offenses. And so people people know people their neighbors have been convicted people. They work with have been convicted of these kinds of charges. So they know we are not an isolated Community with regard to (00:04:55) this problem. It's hard to get. (00:05:51) We never tell them what to expect. We never tell him that bad things happen to him. I got into this with my dad and mom and my daddy said but Kathleen we did don't you remember we taught you this in school? And I said, I must have been sleeping that minute because it passed me by I missed it. And he says no we told you not to get in the car with strangers. We told you not to take candy from strangers and had an till I was 28. I thought it was because the Candy was poisoned. I didn't know it was because adults did bad things to kids I go around Minnesota and the surrounding states and I still hear Educators parents groups telling me but we do teach our kids we teach danger stranger. It's been part of the curriculum for years people. That's not who we have to worry about 85% of all kids that are sexually abused are abused by somebody they love and Trust I say if I'm ever married and I have kids and what Sexually abused I hope to God they're abused by The Stranger on the street because at least a kid can come home to a home somebody that cares and loves them and take care of that hurt. What we've got is 85% of all kids out there that are sexually abused which mountain to the millions that don't have a safe place to come home (00:07:04) to latest figures from The National Humane Association show that about three-quarters of all offenders are male in general. There are slightly more female victims than male and in almost all cases perpetrators are authority figures in their victims lives held in high esteem. We talked to five victims for this program ranging from their early 20s to early 30s and found they were no exception. My name is Debbie. (00:07:30) And the insist started with me when I was six, the perpetrator was my father. My name is Pat. I was first victimized that I can remember when I was about 7 years old and the perpetrator was my stepfather who was in the process of divorcing my mother at the time. My name is Brenda and my abuse started. I am don't know when it started it started very young. My name is Marilyn my abuse started when I was about 5 years old. I was abused by two male cousins who would catch me in my other (00:08:08) cousin would go outside play (00:08:10) and perform anal sex on us and finger us vaginally (00:08:16) trick us into coming up into the playhouse and and not let us go until they were (00:08:20) finished. They were probably five years older. My name is (00:08:24) Cass Butler car (00:08:26) and my victimization took place when I was four years old by an uncle. That I was a foster child with (00:08:34) the experiences of cast Debbie Brenda Pat and Marilyn conformed to two other patterns that show up in the National statistics one is that abuse rarely occurs in one or two isolated episodes rather it persists over a period of years and to it's blatantly (00:08:49) sexual he would come into my room at night. and put his hands over my face and make me perform oral sex on him. He would. Stand in front of me and make me Jack him off and I would say. Maybe three times a week. (00:09:19) and it would be when my mom (00:09:21) would leave and she would leave him there with me and he would get rid of everybody else so that he could do whatever he wanted and he had sexual intercourse with me and I must have been 10 or 11. He was granted visitation rights with most of us. Although I wasn't his child. I was taken along with for the visitation and he'd have you sleeping in his bed in his house and What he did there wasn't sexual intercourse, but there was all kinds of touching he'd take off my clothes and we'd be in bed and my brothers would be supposedly asleep. And most of what he did was touching not talking really just just feeling anything. He wanted to feel whatever he happened to be in a mood for that day. His fingers in my vagina and he would I don't know what he used. He had other things around that that he would also put inside of me. I don't know what they were. We never talked about what happened with my stepfather until I was 16 when I was having a discussion with her about meeting my real father and one evening while we were talking a door in my mind suddenly flashed open and this a few images of what my stepfather had done just flashed through really quickly and I told my mother what had happened and she got hysterical and wanted to go out and shoot the guy which was gratifying for me because that meant she loved me and cared about me and she was also telling me that my real father was a child abuser and that if I decided to go out to California to meet with him that I would not be welcome back in her home again, and I went out to visit. Anyway, I wasn't going to be denied a chance to find a real father who could love me and take care of me and give me something I'd never gotten at home. And when I did meet with him, he was a very affectionate person which I thought was really neat because there'd been no affection. My life what I didn't know was that his affection was sexual and the way he was touching me wasn't just hugs and kisses on the cheeks. He was touching my breasts all the time. He took me out to buy me a bikini, which was inappropriate, I guess for my age and my lifestyle in the way. I thought about myself. It just wasn't right and he decided at one point after I'd been out there about a week that he was going to he asked me if I if he should go and get a condom and I realized then I had to force myself to realize that what he was doing was sexual and I got hysterical and he put me on a plane and sent me home. I was also victimized by an uncle of mine who when we were visiting him one time on to show me his deer rifle and when he was attempting to show me he put his hand underneath my shirt and grab my boob and pulled me down on his lap and I could feel An erection I got extremely frightened because it brought back memories what my cousin's would do to me (00:12:05) society's unwillingness to acknowledge child sexual abuse is no more evident than in families affected by the problem for various reasons. The abuse of these women was never dealt with as it happened. When I attempted to tell my mother she believed me (00:12:20) that it had happened and (00:12:23) she felt it was necessary to tell my dad because I was supposed to go stay with my uncle for the summer (00:12:29) and help them out for the summer. So when she told my dad he called me a liar and from then on I never told anybody about anything again. I am used to block it out as soon as it happened. I blocked it. I mean I did not remember it happen until I until I went to college the minute. His hands were off me. I totally shut off whatever he had done and it was if it had never happened. I had no conscious memory that he had done anything to me. (00:12:57) I think until you two years ago. It was busy. As usual we all sat around. Walked in the front door and hugged and kissed it Christmas time and played the role. I get so tired of waiting for the change to come. You. Tell me just be patient what's been done is done. It's got my you tell me don't be angry and starts to grow and everything. I tried to say is brown. (00:15:13) It's this man with deep-set eyes bushy eyebrows, and he's always very very fat with this pasty complexion and he blobs along, you know, and you can pick him out and you tell your kids to stay away from him. That's what the problem is people. You can't put pick sexual abusers out of a crowd. They look just like you and I do they look just like the banker down the street. They look just like your next-door neighbor and they look just like your husband. They look just exactly like us that's why we can't and we've got to break down that stereotype. They aren't low income low intelligent people who don't know any better. You've got to accept that people abuse kids because they choose to do so, they aren't these raving Maniacs that can't control their sexual drives their people who choose to control kids. And as you control kids you use them (00:16:05) sexually I had a good job for 12 years. And I felt secure in control of everything when my control. Lost I guess I lost part of my manly that's or whatever. My image was changed. My wife had to go to work. I guess I felt less. Of a man because after all them years I couldn't provide. it was a very a very hard time for me 32 year old Doug was convicted last December of second degree criminal sexual assault like others. He asked that we not use his last name Doug is currently serving a six-month jail term the victim in this case his daughter now seven. I was very secure person under around you and I that was my security. And when I seen that going down the drain, I guess I become an insecure person. And I turned to my wife, but she didn't know how to deal with it either. We were both having a great deal of difficulty accepting that. This could happen to us after all them years. And somehow or the other. I turned to my daughter and I guess I turned to her for them. security that I was still I could still be responsible for something or I had some you know type of order left in my life or something and it was very confused time Doug Likens his behavior to that of an alcoholic looking back. He says he seriously considered turning to alcohol before entering into the sexual relationship with his daughter but sexual gratification. He says was never a motive the incestual relationship lasted several months until one day. He says when his daughter made an innocent observation I was laying with my wife and And on the couch and my daughter said something. about Hurley and with me on the couch or something and and and After that, it just kind of snowballed, but then there was about a year that we didn't we didn't report it to authorities or anything at but we found that we just couldn't live with each other and it was just too long. It was too big a rock and between us I guess it was. So he had a real tough year that last year there was but then we went for help. We we went to. To marriage counselor to see if there was anything left at all. And when we told her our major problem, was that something that happened between me and my daughter? Then that's when everything kind of hit the fan. I guess it I was I was locked in a little room and told I couldn't go home and she was whisked away into another room and and given all kinds of advice on how to Keep me away from the home. And how did and I guess first thing that they must have mentioned to her was divorce because it wasn't three days later. She was asking for a divorce. You know, she uh, she didn't want no part of all the Monkey Business the divorce came a few weeks later. Ironically the day Doug turned himself into law enforcement authorities and was officially charged I got caught unni. compulsive cycle there were multiple. occasions where there was sexual contact made and it's it's a whole rash of low self-esteem. I guess would be the primary. Factor in the cycle for 38 year-old Steve also convicted of second degree criminal sexual conduct. It was again the case of losing control the victim his stepson age 10. There was a breakdown in the marriage relationship. And I firmly believe that that was a contributing factor. There were other factors also, but that's that was primarily I hadn't experienced any financial disasters at that time, but it was headed towards that unlike Doug who didn't know about mandatory reporting laws. Steve says he was well aware of the consequences before he sought counseling. I was in such a state of of I guess I would call it non-functioning. I couldn't it was either obtain some help professional help. Or I was going to end my life. And I called. one of the local mental health facilities And explain to them I was extremely depressed. I wasn't eating. Towards the end. I wasn't eating properly. I had trouble sleeping. I was in a pretty bad emotional state of being. I was aware of it. However, I couldn't do anything about it on my own. The only thing I could do was to reach out for help. They told me that they had to report it to the authorities at that point. and he asked me if Excuse me, if I would prefer to wait 24 hours or to do it now and I told him go ahead and do it. Now. (00:23:01) You hear all these things and let me tell you they're excuses their excuses for adults choosing to control kids choosing to sexually abuse kids and for us as other adults to feel sorry for them that they've got a problem. Obviously, they've got a problem but it's time we started feeling sorry for the victim. It's time we started thinking about what this does to a child. We're talking about losing childhood. We're talking about that when you are sexually abused you lose a part of you I send out enough signals for people to pick up on that somebody should have noticed. (00:23:37) like a being sick all the time (00:23:38) and passing out in church and going to the doctor with this or that all the time, but I guess you kind of generalize and figure people a pick up on those things and they don't and as far as being in school and stuff how I never really had close friends or anything because I I was scared to do that and I'm school. I am didn't have any close friends and I don't really know why I avoided them except I just didn't want to be close to people and I would think that I was not worth it because because I was very overweight and and I also had a speech problem which kids would make fun of me for two very good reasons. They're so I felt very bad and in a plus my parents who you used to tell me that I was worthless that I am should be thankful that I am have a roof over my (00:24:35) head as these women entered adulthood. There were problems symptoms. They say of child sexual abuse. I'm married and have two children and my marriage was breaking (00:24:44) up. I was having sexual problems with my husband. And we instead of seeking a divorce seek counseling and my third session through counseling the therapist looked at me and told me that he felt that I was a victim of incest that was a parent at that time and having a lot of problems being a parent because I had no role model and didn't know that the way I was responding with my daughter was wrong. We were having a lot of problems and I was debating giving her up for adoption because I simply couldn't handle being a parent and I came to the conclusion that I did not want to do that but that I had to do something for myself. And so I started screaming incest to everybody here it is. I'm a victim do something. What am I going to do? Where can I go? I am went to college and I started have flashbacks. And at first I just wanted to think that I was just dreaming that I really wasn't true. But then these flashbacks kept getting worse and worse and Nightmares kept getting worse and worse. So I am finally told my I finally told my first roommate and I'm she thought and I'm she thought that I was making it up. So I quit telling people but I am was having dreams of how dad would attack me like he would come down a like come he would come down to the barn and when I was feeding the cows and and I'm he would touch me and he and I'm here to have intercourse with me. We had been married for five (00:26:05) years and had a normal very good sexual. experiences and then the last year it just was really going downhill and what I realize now is that after five years of being married that the person that I was married to that I trusted him and I felt safe and at that point, I didn't feel like I had to produce any more that I could sit back and be myself and I could I started trying to say no and (00:26:43) realizing that I didn't have to (00:26:45) always do sexual things in that started causing a lot of confusion. (00:26:52) And so we staked (00:26:53) out help at that point. I had seen a show on TV on Donahue on sexual abuse. And incest a very small segment of signals and signs and I matched up with that and then (00:27:05) went for help. It's time we in the profession and you all in the public quit asking the reason why because there isn't going to be an answer for that. If you change the diaper of a two-year-old you're never going to understand how a mother can start sucking on the penis of that two-year-old while her husband masturbates all over the 7 year old daughter who's sitting in the chair. You're never going to understand that and you're never going to understand why (00:27:32) well, no one disagrees something must be done therapists like Nancy and Civics say the question, why must at least be addressed at Duluth clinical psychologist and Civics agrees with Morris. There's no cure for sexual offenders, but says they can be treated primarily. What we have is a man who has compulsive behavior. And anybody who's ever smoked. Some tried to quit knows when we're talking about cure that we're talking about as she talked about cure. No, we cannot cure this because it's not a disease. But yes, we can modify that behavior that compulsive attitude and we can break up that compulsiveness. So no one fact, we cannot cure this person like give them some kind of medication to make it stop but we can teach them a different kind of behavior to substitute for that compulsiveness who are in test offenders or child sex abuse others and Civics agrees. You can't pick them out in a crowd but says research and her own experience find some common histories and traits first. She says the vast majority are male. They have a history of abuse generally and that's physical abuse sexual abuse or emotional abuse where they've been traumatized primarily by the Father the father to their father tends to be an emotionally distant individual who is cold and isn't not a person that can be pleased many. Times this shame base in that family of the abuser another words. There's something socially shameful that the abuser has grown up believing that it's a shame based family that he belongs to he also grows up having a problem around his gender identification were talking about sexual identification. What does it mean to be a man what his maleness and to learns certain things about you have to be tough and mean and shut up and you must be dominance and you must be the old stereotype of the muto Macho male now, I'm not saying that everyone who's mucho Macho Meal of course is a sex offender or incest offender. No, I'm not saying that these men tend to be people who Have developmental or deficits they have holes in their development because of the way they were the way they grew up and I'm not saying cuddle these people what they have done is wrong. There's no two ways about it and they know because they have a high different standard perhaps of morality. They do know right from wrong and they're repulsed when they first begin engaging in sexual molestation or sexual activity with children there tends to be an absent wife in the picture. Now, this can be because of arguments or because of sexual differences, but keep in mind that the sexual abuser does not sexually abused children because there's an absence of sex or availability. This is not so the sexual abuse comes through the need for nurturance from a non-judgmental person a loving a person who will love them without judgment and here leads in the mixed message that they have about love to them love equates X that is not true to them intimacy. (00:30:36) Equates (00:30:37) intercourse and that is not true and Civic says female offenders. Nationally. They account for 25% of the total are in many ways. Just the opposite of their male counterparts. Well first off she has some very serious emotional problems. Certainly they have to do a gender identification, but it's passive. She's extremely passive dependent personality attends to have what we call sociopath personality the acting out kind of personality the rebellion, and there is although she may say that she loves her children. She is incapable of love as we know and understand love equating love understanding that love is an intimate relationship. She is an individual who denies very strongly. Involvement around things and tends to have religiosity by that. I mean Zeal very fundamental beliefs. Perhaps is the best way to describe it. Her view of reality is perhaps different than the conventional person's view of reality. Very fantasy oriented. Very fantasy bound (00:32:05) when we started working with Beverly. We wanted to figure out that if sexual abuse is generational then how in the world do you get people from outside the family, you know, you can understand grandpa and grandma and Sons but how do you get people from outside the family to come in? Well, we started with Beverly we said Beverly. When did you first get to know the cermak's and she said? Oh I met Stan the grandpa when he was just visiting next door and he told me I'd be perfect for his son Jim and so he set us up on a blind date and I said, okay and you went on the blind date tell me about that and she said well Stan drove and he took gym and I to a drive-in movie and at the drive-in movie Stan anally raped me to show Jim how to have sex with a woman because he never had sex with a woman before he'd only had sex with little boys and then Jimmy Lee raped me after Stan showed him how and then they took me home. I said Beverly why in the world didn't you call the police? She said they never would have believed me. They don't even believe my kids now and I said, okay so you didn't think that they'd believe you. Why did you ever see him again? And she said, oh I didn't to start with they sent me candy and flowers and told me how wonderful I was but then they started telling me I was stupid and ugly and dumb and basically if I never marry if I didn't marry Jim, I'd never marry anybody and I said so, why did you marry Jim? Well, Kathleen women have to get married. (00:33:35) Maura says Beverly Cermak first got involved in incest after observing her husband with their children. Jim Cermak is currently serving a 40 year prison term after multiple abuse convictions. But Morris says Beverly Cermak herself abused her children with no coercion. And with no moral (00:33:52) qualms. She said, oh no, Kathleen I got involved with children because sex with children is beautiful and I said Beverly, I don't understand. What do you mean and she says well, let me tell you about my best sexual experience ever. It's when I had my two-year-old son sitting on my face and I was sucking on his penis. I'd sucked on the penis of my three-year-old son until it was hard and I had it in my vagina along with my fingers because his penis is too small and I had two fingers of my four-year-old daughter in my butt sex with three children at one time is beautiful. She immediately told George and I though she says but Kathleen they're going to I did something that was really really wrong and they're going to use it against me a trial George and I walked out later and said we couldn't think of anything worse. I mean we knew she hadn't killed anybody. What was worse she had she said I had an affair with my brother-in-law and that's a sin we spent some time with Beverly on that and we found that Beverly Like so many other people who sexually abuse children tend to be very religion very religious office very often very rigid very moralistic. They can't understand that other people have other ideas other ways to live their lives and Beverly's whole thing was nowhere in the Bible. Does it say thou shalt not screw? Thy kids? It did say is one of the Ten Commandments basically Thou shalt not commit adultery. So Beverly saw as her great wrong in this world was the affair with a married man Beverly and Jelena are in the sexual aggressors program at st. Peter because they were able to say that they had a problem most people who sexually abuse kids can't admit that what they've done is wrong (00:35:37) as we heard earlier Steve and Doug were also able to admit they had problems both men add they are living proof that offenders can be treated successfully with therapy after six months in jail and intensive counseling that he volunteered for Doug says, he's confident the word control. Him no longer means control over another person but rather over his own behavior. I've made my mistake and I wouldn't make it again. You know, that's the way I feel when was take was costly enough. I sure wouldn't go and do it again. So although it is a compulsive Behavior just like drinking as I guess. But it means too much to me, too. To put that knew I would have to I would jeopardize everything that I've worked for the last 6 months. I know I love my kids. It's an awful hurt. when I think of what happened hurt I guess that's what I got to remind me. I don't know. I don't associate the guilt. I associate the pain and hurt. While in many ways they fit the average offender profile that and Civics detailed earlier Doug and Steve are exceptions in one important aspect like Morris. Doug says most offenders are unwilling to seek help. Denial is a very strong. Natural Instinct, I guess that you have to really be hurt. RC I Hurt Like In My Daughter's Eyes when she said it happened and I says no it couldn't have happened. You're not on. I was just like saying that she was lying and I wasn't Jenna that was my turning point for not denying it that it did happen. And denial is what all five victims we've heard from encountered when after therapy each confronted their perpetrators even time years in these cases didn't make things any easier. (00:39:08) I am went out and I am side ad down the barn as I'm usual. He was with the cows and he was busy feeding them and I am asked Dad if I'm he remembered what happened and I'm mrs. And then he called me a liar and my mom knows about it and My mom is kind of trying to shove it underneath the rug like it never happened and let's not talk about this which still causes a lot of bad feelings about myself. I feel like she should support me and she's not he kind of cut off the conversation saying it was too long long distance telephone. And and now we shouldn't waste our money like that which was pretty clear to me if he thought it was a waste then I guess that it was a waste talking to him about (00:39:51) it. How can I try to explain when I do he turns away? It's always been the same same old story from the moment. I could talk. I was honored to listen, and I know that I have to go away. I know I have to go. But (00:40:46) despite failing thus far to make peace with their abusers these women say group therapy, which each has attended with other victims has given them for the first time in their lives a feeling of full control the ability to say. No. (00:40:59) I confronted My Father by calling him long distance and letting him know that what had happened out there was wrong was not going to happen again. If we did happen to meet again Dad was not listening. So I started jumping up and down and swearing swearing and I says Dad you did it to me and it's never going to happen again, and I have my (00:41:15) power back and no matter what happens. I'm going to get well, I will to be hand washed (00:42:31) in addition to control these victims as well as Steve and Doug say therapy will ensure that abuse which Have otherwise continued in future Generations will end in their families. The counseling has been far from easy. However for victims it's meant reliving ugly childhood moments and a lot of turmoil and misunderstanding among family members for Steve and Doug. It's meant divorce and a relationship with their children in Doug's case his own children that will likely be forever scarred right now. It's just time I have to have my wife with my ex-wife with for visitation. And we have to meet in a public place such as a restaurant or someone like that. We have talked this over and after. I'm through with therapy through with my jail sentence. I will be going back to court to get some visitation rights probably. I'll probably be denied any overnight visitations or weekends or anything like that for offenders seeking therapy also makes inherently undesirable publicity inevitable. Thanks to mandatory reporting laws. This is especially painful in smaller communities moreover dealings with the police or the sheriff are much tougher than those with counselors as sergeant Campbell admits. The child abuser is an unflattering Stand Out Among all criminal suspects when I have to assign a case to somebody and I have to read their reports or I have to go through the case and make sure that it's put together before it goes to the county attorney's office or if I have to talk with the people. You know, I see these kids as possibly being my children and it it's hard, you know, if an adult goes out and commits a burglary people say that's terrible they broke in and stole that but I can understand them stealing. But if it's a sexual crime against a child, you know, this is probably one of the biggest taboos in our society but like Doug and Steve Campbell says this one very compelling reason why offenders should own up and why the general public should be on the lookout for and Report abuse. That's the child's welfare. I've seen cases where the family is coming and saying gee what am I going to do now my all my neighbors are no I'm going to you know, because the, you know, the stepfather stepmother or stepson and stepchild or whatever and they're going to say in all my friends will know and I'll have to leave town everything and they're all worried about the family. Nobody seems to be worrying about he look at the poor kid (00:45:02) over here for poor kids gone through a (00:45:04) trump a trauma that may affect the child for the rest of his life. And they're worried about a name in the paper and somebody knowing you have to break the cycle and I'm breaking mine. I even encouraged my boys to go into therapy so that because they were falling in my cycle in the same pattern that I grew up in. I was raising them the same way and I don't know. It's a it's an awful thing. sometimes I'm glad it happened because I've had to take the stand in life. When I think of my daughter it hurts, but Doug and Steve say Law Enforcement Officers should be trained to handle child sexual abuse cases with sensitivity the prospect of a hostile officer. They say could deter many offenders who want to seek help. I am a human being I do have feelings. I am not a monster. The problem will not be solved or cured or by locking people up. The compulsivity will still be there when the person is released from jail. However long that may be What is needed is treatment? Not only for the victim. but for the perpetrator and the entire family that is what's needed. It is the behavior is multi-generational and if the victim is not received treatment. It will be repeated to help make it easier to report Steve says he plans to start a hotline manned by people like himself a place where offenders can talk to people who've been in their predicament yet come out of it successfully. (00:48:21) He has heard of sexual abuse. Most of you have to make do with your last who can tell me what it means who remembers what it means when somebody touches your part one of your private parts and you don't want them to touch it. All right, good. Anybody else want to give more definition? What sexual abuse has? (00:48:47) Well more reporting and greater awareness of child abuse is helping Society address the problem like never before Morris and Civics and indeed everyone. We talked to for this program agree. The only long-term solution is prevention programs like this one at the Lutes Birchwood Elementary School are offered in schools throughout the region children are being taught to tell whenever they feel they've been touched (00:49:09) inappropriately. It's embarrassing but it's a real serious kind of attached and one that I think we (00:49:21) need to the poorest ads parents Teachers Day Care workers. And anyone dealing with children should also be taught to listen when children do indeed (00:49:29) tell I had a friend who because of the cermak's taught her three-year-old before he was three All About Touch and that nobody has the right to touch your body in a bad way, you know and you have the right to do what you want to do with your body and you don't let adults touch him. If you don't want them to she spent a lot of time on this and she took him shopping at Dayton's over Christmas and had him standing in the in the right next to the rack because she didn't want to lose him and want to keep an eye on him and he's a dolly has this long curly blond hair and she doesn't get it cut because it's so cute, you know, and so she's got him standing there and this woman 75 80 years old walked by and rub the top of his head. He immediately started screaming no my mother Says you can't touch me in the whole world. It looks like comes running to see who in the world has hurt. This little boy. Mary is so embarrassed. She rushes up to this woman to explain in the woman immediately says no I didn't have the right to touch him. I might have been a (00:50:28) Cermak but it's precisely Sensational cases like the cermak's and the extensive media coverage. They attract that psychologists and Civics worries might adversely affect the education process these cases coming to trial keep in mind that we're dealing again with a sensational issue the case that she describes is very unusual case where you have that kind of abuse generally the sexual abuse that occurs in family settings is much less. Much less physically destructive Brian borage director of Family Services for the st. Louis County Social Services Department agrees. I think we can scare children too much. I know and when I was growing up after the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, I think it was probably a universal National phenomena that kids are scared to death and my parents told me don't worry about it. We don't have any money. So no one's going to kidnap you I'd probably wasn't the best kind of answer but that I think the whole nation went through and there's some good things that came out of that but I'm sure in a lot of cases kids developed all kinds of unnecessary anxieties. I think kids need to be informed and given some tools to handle an unwanted Overture, but if it gets to the point where you know one out of every three adults you see is an abuser you better watch all the time. And then I wonder if kids can truly be kids Kathleen Morrison. It's there could be some hysteria. But so she's optimistic that in time it will wear off and we'll be a society of adults who listen and of children who know and (00:52:10) talk. It's real optimistic. It's just really neat that we're seeing more and more kids protected more and more kids that are listen to We Now know if your kid runs through the house and he says gosh, you know, mr. Jones wears funny underwear. You don't say oh, yeah right go play. It's either on mr. Jones or it's on the clothesline and forth on mr. Jones. We got a problem. So let's talk about it. We started and we started to ask kids we started to tell kids that they can tell somebody they (00:52:39) Trust Tell somebody else. (00:54:47) Hello, this is Fred de Sam Lazaro calling from Minnesota Public Radio. Who am I speaking with? Please (00:54:51) - (00:54:53) I know is we just finished a documentary about child sexual abuse and we heard repeatedly that you can't pick an abuser out in a crowd and I have a question for you can one pick an abused child out in a crowd and if so, what are some of the symptoms one might (00:55:06) look for? Children that have been sexually abused or severely physically abused give off many indicators sometimes physical him things like physical complaints about stomach aches headaches sore throats fecal soiling nightmares vaginitis different types of infection own children as they get older. We see a lot of depression and withdrawal an abused child often withdraws from the rest of the family some behavior problems like truancy or getting into drug and alcohol abuse running away sometimes into some sexual misconduct poor sexual behavior all types of problems that we often in the past have attributed to other things. We're now finding our symptoms the children give off when they're in abusive situation. (00:55:56) And if one in any way suspects abuse one is required by law to notify authorities on my right (00:56:03) professional sound that are working with children and families are required to report other community members May report if they should so choose and are protected by the reporting law in terms of any repercussions. (00:56:17) Okay, who and where would one call (00:56:20) in any County? You can call the Social Services Department their initial intake division would look in to report a child abuse or the local law enforcement center within the person's Community would be responsible to do the investigation if someone is in doubt as to where in their Community to report, I would suggest that they call the Minnesota program for victims and that number is area code 6122967084. That office could tell you. Are your local resources would be in terms of a any sort of abuse program like ours or other agencies in the area that could assist the family services like ours are free and confidential to anyone calling or seeking service. So (00:57:10) okay Ines Wagner of 82 victims of sexual assault in Duluth. Thanks very much. Bye bye.