(00:00:00) The telephone number to call in Minneapolis st. Paul is 2276 thousand 2276 thousand the phone number and we will take your comments for a little while here. We don't have any Studio guests no experts, but we'd like to hear from you at to 276 thousand just a little bit about the about the program. This has appeared in the Press. So it's nothing new but the documentary was written by James Reston Jr. Who has we just heard is the author of a book about the same tragedy called Our Father who art in hell he flew to Guyana shortly after hearing about the tragedy on November 18th of 1978 and he found the tapes from which the broadcast was made stuffed in boxes and cartons in Jonestown. The federal government confiscated the tapes most of which rest and succeeded in obtaining in January 1980. He did not have an easy time of it. However, the justice department took the 971 tapes and refused to release them because of pending legal proceedings against Larry Laden one of Jones has AIDS rest in filed suit for the tapes released under the Freedom of Information Act and about six months later. He prevailed. Well. I see there are few people on the telephone with with comments on the program. So let's go to our first caller now. Hi, you're on the (00:01:27) air. Thank you very much again. I guess I want to congratulate NPR and NPR first such fine programming. I have a couple of comments one is in hearing the call in that was done on Thursday night with the original program over NPR. There were a number of people that related it to other religious movements of both in a positive and negative way and I guess I Saw the similarity between the kind of atmosphere that Jim Jones was trying to create and the Moral Majority today that there was such an absolute fanatical allegiance to one interpretation into a final authority to the exclusion in an almost suicidal way and I guess I I see The Logical conclusion of a Moral Majority type attitude being our own self-destruction again, not in quite the bizarre and violent way certainly not mass suicide but I think our country could in itself destroy itself if it were to allow itself to be as intolerant. Is that (00:02:41) whether or not that would that would be the case with moral majority don't you think there is a sufficient diversity of viewpoint in this country and a sufficient size physical size if nothing else to prevent any Get our individual from having that kind of influence on the United States. (00:02:57) Well, I guess I wasn't necessarily referring that the whole country would self-destruct but that the movement itself will self-destruct because in the way that Jim Jones controlled information, I see the leaders and the followers of the Moral Majority wearing blinders and some of the issues that they bring up to me defy logic and reason and that I hold very strong religious beliefs myself, but yet I'm I'm sometimes even ashamed to admit that because of the name which other people are giving and saying this is done in the name of God and this is done in the name of God and I'm almost afraid to use the same word God because of it. (00:03:46) Well, thank you very much for your observations. We appreciate your calling this afternoon. We have another caller with a comment about father cares. Hi, you're on the air. (00:03:53) Hello today. I'd like to make the comment. I listen to the show Thursday night. And I also had my daughter listen to it this morning with me again to tell you I really appreciate it listening to this show. I thought it was very very good. And the one comment I'd like to make is Jim Jones supposedly at the end of he was not a Christ follower. I believed in Christ, but one of the things that Christ has said is that those who do not believe that those who take their own life shall never see the kingdom of heaven and I find it odd that at the end. He did not take his life. He had someone else do it for him when he had his followers all commit suicide most of them. He would not commit suicide himself. He had someone else do it. Does that sort of say something that maybe at the end he was afraid. (00:04:45) Well, it could be. I guess we probably will not know the answer to that, but I thank you very much for calling this afternoon, bye-bye. We have another caller with a comment. Hi, you're on the air. (00:04:55) Yeah, you know, I noticed the other night that nobody. He talked about the Nazis and Hitler and its followers and it seems to me that Jones and his powers are very much like the Nazi (00:05:12) movement household. (00:05:15) Well in that, you know Hitler and Jones started out with a I don't know if you called touch craziness. It's like saying someone's a little bit pregnant, but you know, they had a seizure psychosis in them and the flowers were the same kind of blind devotee and you know, they committed Suicide and Hitler did in the end to (00:05:51) well, okay. I appreciate your calling. Thank you very much for listening. Yeah, bye-bye. We have more callers with comments on Father cares. The last of Jonestown the numbered in the Twin Cities is 2276 thousand and the Lions do open up once in a while. So if you get a busy signal keep trying we have another caller. Hi, you're on the air. (00:06:11) Hello. Thank you very much my name These tapes because many people were not able to hear them the first time I think this program illustrates the so well, the abuse of power that is involved with a single cult leader who uses mind control to dominate his members. And of course as we see suicide is the ultimate control, isn't it? Jonestown is out in the open and we can see what went on we can hear the tapes. However, my comments deal with the many calls which are operating in our country today that have not been exposed and of obviously for reasons that don't Stone was they basically operate in a very low key type of weight recently. I was at a meeting and I had a chance to speak to them about the dangerous called Group after the meeting a woman came up to me and said I didn't realize the Cults were that active anymore and I think this is precisely the problem only if we know someone who has lost a child to a cold or no other family do we then How active they are and this is why we need to bring out to the public more information about calls and the illegality of their activities and recently, of course one of the girls got into the newspaper the way International when they were here in the Twin Cities recruiting new members and I must make a comment. I do feel that the news media coverage was excellent it gave complete and fair reporting and I feel that in enlightened many people and hopefully saved some of our young people from from joining that group because of what they they found out about it. It does leave us feeling though. What can we do our democracy does provide us several options and one of course is this program and we can express our opinions here. Another one is to write to your legislator and ask for hearing concerning. The illegality is of Cults. I have recently been a lobbying at the legislature and we do have some interim hearing set. For the summer, however, our legislators do appreciate your support and whether it's a postcard or a phone call to the capital or a letter it all means a lot to our legislators to have this this interest and they do appreciate it. So I would urge everyone listening to please write to the Capitol and you can send it to the state capitol General legislation committee st. Paul Minnesota and express your interest in finding out more about the Cults and having these hearings. There are other things we can do. I think an informed public unaware public is one that's forewarned. We can may I mention a couple of newsletters that are possible to send for want to see the citizens Freedom (00:09:06) Foundation. Well, I think rather than getting into the specific promotion of particular items, we would better be would be better off to you know, encourage folks to write to their to their lawmakers and express their views that way (00:09:18) I understand man make a couple of comments briefly. Yes. Yes. All right. Young you're in a cult and it Loaded from the cause at the end of the program and this is what is important. There were two young men on from Cults one from Scientology and one from the unification church and they made comments from their comments. You would never dream that there was anything wrong with their cult that the everything was just fine. However, I want to mention a couple of things. He that was a fellow from Scientology mentioned the conviction of Ted Patrick. And that conviction was I want to bring out who could Patrick is (00:10:01) he's not ma'am. I really think you know, we're getting a little bit far afield here. I think that we probably in the phones are full. I think we probably do need to move on to (00:10:09) our I do want to make this this last comment very briefly then yes, I'm glad you had the program on. And I want people to be very aware of of the problem of the cult but we have to look farther than Jonestown. We must look at the Cults that are operating in today's society. (00:10:27) Thank you very much for calling. Obviously. There is a lot of concern about this issue. And obviously there is a fine line for us to tread in the area of public policy between protecting people and allowing people to exercise their own freedoms. It's a difficult Choice, isn't it? We have another caller with a comment. Hi, you're on the air. (00:10:46) Hello. My feeling is that Jim Jones's individual individual maniac and that I've heard I've heard both programs now and I feel that the basic thrust of his approach was the destruction of all family ties and individual strengths. And I feel that the equation with. I'm finding it hard to say it (00:11:21) doesn't you're sort of suggesting that it doesn't really extend much further than that one particular individual in that particular case. (00:11:28) Well, that's right and to equate it with various Cults and sects. I think that that that's the wrong approach. I think that people have to find their own strength and that they can't blame anyone for instance on the evening show. There was a woman in the Forum that made constant references to the capitalistic system and how the people were running away from the capitalistic system the terrible capitalistic system the downtrodden people. Well, I feel that approach is wrong and I feel that the people those people should know that there are part of this family the American (00:12:08) family. Okay? Well, thank you very much for your call. We appreciate hearing from you this afternoon. Thank you. Two, two seven six thousand is the telephone number in the Twin Cities. It's Twelve and a half minutes past one o'clock. We're talking about father cares the last of Jonestown the program. We just heard here on ksjn higher on the air (00:12:24) pressure coming struck me while I was listening to the program that there are a lot of good things that he began with and among them were rejection of racism and fascism, which didn't seem to come out very well defined but a lot of things that people would tend to agree with and beyond that he was praised I guess on the evening program for having been someone who caught the people who slipped through the floorboards of our society that were probably losers to begin with him. He helped bring them up by their bootstraps, whatever to a place where they felt they had some value and we're equal this sort of thing. So with the kind of a fascinating study at which point to try to figure out it which point something that starts out good goes wrong and I guess they're all kinds of analyses of that including his taking of drugs, but I think among the Gary is would have to be the idea that people at some point suspended their judgment to the point of believing and daddy rather than feeling they were able to disagree about something and maybe that's my kind of pitch here is that if we the more we abdicate our right and our responsibility to think about things and to try to form judgments about them, and if not violently at least honestly to to express our opinions about them the more we're going to be able to be taken over by somebody who's charismatic and who starts out with good ideas, but who who comes out in the end to be a kind of a cult of a personality. (00:14:17) We're all responsible for our own actions aren't lie. (00:14:21) Yeah, and and I think it's more comfortable sometimes not to And I don't know where that leaves us is kind of an observation. (00:14:32) Yeah. Well, it's an interesting one and I thank you very much for calling this afternoon. We have more callers with comments. Hi, you're on the air. (00:14:39) Hi. I just like to say thank you to NPR for putting the program on the air. I've listened to it twice now and each time. I've listened to it. I get a very unsettled feeling inside. My stomach is just almost like it was something surreal that happened. Although I know better. I know that it did happen. I mean that's documented everything but it just leaves me with such a sense of bewilderment as to how over 900 people thought. Some people could be manipulated to the degree that they were by Jim Jones and I heard some comments yesterday and listening to all things considered some comments afterward that had to do with them. How this was done how in PR somebody criticized in PR for the way it was done. I'm sorry. I can't give you the exact quote but there was somebody saying it was sensationalistic and I don't agree with that at all. I don't think that was in pairs intention. He didn't come across to me. That way came across a very straightforward documentary. Although I like I said listen to a twice now and I just listened to it in silence. I called my parents. I had told just to listen to it and it's I don't know I'm up and I'm up in the ears. As far as where answers go answers are where we can find answers to problems like this then people like Jim Jones, but he just it overwhelms me each time. I listen to it. Maybe it's just a little bit too much for me. But the reality of it all just really slays me. It really really sets me back and I I'm sure there's a few more Jim Jones running around and I'm sure as a few more devotees willing to spend time. And energy and love towards that type of person but as to what to do, I'm kind of in a corner. I've heard some of the past suggestions that you had lately but I don't know if I agree with writing the legislature about that or not. I don't mean to ramble. It's just that every time I listen to it. It's just it really grips me really hits me right in the gut really hard and I'd like to thank NPR for putting it on. I think you've done a great service to your listeners. (00:16:49) Okay. Thank you. Thank you for calling. Thank you powerful material. No doubt about that is there. More colors with comments on Father cares. Hello. You're on the air. (00:17:07) Do you think or do you know whether anyone who's analyzed Jones thinks he really believed. He was God or had Godlike powers or was he just interested in making his followers believed (00:17:19) that frankly ma'am? I don't know. I am not an expert on the topic. We're just kind of sharing views here this (00:17:26) afternoon. And why do you suppose he recorded what was actually his downfall when it showed him to be insane really from you know, the language you use among other things. (00:17:40) Well, he he may have wanted to listen to himself. I really I just, you know, folks never really, you know, I don't suppose he figured that he was over the hill. Did he? (00:17:59) Okay. Thank you. Thank you for calling (00:18:02) 18 minutes past one o'clock. Hello. You're on the air. (00:18:05) Yes. I really appreciate it. I'm hearing father's cares. It really struck me home because since I've become a Christian five years ago, I noticed that there's been a movement against cult and they've also besides it's going against cops have also decided to go against fanaticism what they consider fanaticism and it's really interesting that one of Jim Jones is major problems, you know was a was a war between him and God and He took Satan side. It's really interesting that you know, Matthew for Christ went against Satan are you know Satan came to Christ when he was in the desert and there's three different instances in the first two times were Satan was trying to attack Jesus sonship and say if you're the Son of God, if you're the Son of God, you know to turn this rock into bread, but then the third time he attacked Jesus. You said, you know ask Jesus if you wanted to get all this world to fall down and buy them and I firmly believe that the first two attacks are directed to Christians because verse John John 1 verse 14 where now 14 would first John I've had 12. I think it says unto those who believe on Jesus name gave him power to become the sons of God. Hmm. So the first 2 things is that Satan comes and he tries to attack our sonship and he says if you're a Son of God, you know, why did you sin or why why aren't you perfect and you know through faith we maintain but then the last one is very rare in Jim Jones was attacked with this and you know, look at all these things I can give you this power this wealth this (00:20:07) phone. Well, thank you very much for calling. We appreciate hearing from you this afternoon. There's a lot of points of view on on this program and we're finding out this afternoon what some of you think a to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities. Hello. You're on the air. (00:20:23) Hello. I've been unable to hear any of the messages that were called in by your listeners. I had to go to a pay phone that I'd like to say a few things one on this Jones. He doesn't sound at all like a religious person second. I think he expresses more the clan type mentality. I think he maybe could be construed as a political born again. It sounds like a dirty trick to said Jonestown deal. I'm thinking of what's Happening Now in Atlanta Georgia, and I say that people in this country have got to get together recognize the common Humanity. We share. And try to organize for a democratic government in 1984. That's all I have to say. (00:21:15) Okay. Thank you very much for calling. We appreciate hearing from you. We have another caller with a comment about father Karras. Hi, you're on the (00:21:21) air. Thank you. It's really a mind-boggling program to listen to didn't have the opportunity to listen to it the other night, but since I'm a member of public radio tap it to listen to it this morning one thing. I think that that I don't appreciate people throwing out this word coltd sect with a sneer because it seems to me that with some understanding of all of the great religions. They all started out as Cults. There was something held by The Establishment whenever it was some kind of belief which was held by The Establishment. They all started out with a charismatic leader and usually appealed to the some people put out steering me the shirtless one. And the poor the downtrodden eventually if you're successful with your message, you get a cross section of the people including the wealthy who can contribute money and some sort of respectability. Then you become a denomination and then you can put the flag of whatever state that you're in in your probit and support become a part of the establishment think we ought to remember that and another thing I think that all of us are vulnerable the matter what status of life we may come from animate from and all of us have been taught to believe and when you have been taught to believe and you can be led by somebody else's thoughts. So cleverly until you think that his thoughts are the committee's thoughts are your thoughts? (00:22:55) Well, how does the individual guard against that? (00:22:58) You have to be a free thinker he has to be taught to think from childhood and even to challenge his own parents. And even the scripture tells you to challenge your own parents. This fact that he turned the children against their own their parents is taught in the Christian Bible. And in fact is if you if you want your children to think and you have to give them the privilege to to question mother and father and all of the authorities within the society that you live and it's not easy to do. (00:23:27) Well, thank you very much for calling. We appreciate hearing from you this evening, bye-bye. Okay, we have more callers on the line. Hi, you're on the air my turn. (00:23:35) Yes, ma'am. I thought Masada about a week ago and channel 2 and that was also a but people that were the Fortress mentality and that's all there is to it and they they killed each other and they killed spit their children's throat because the enemy was coming and to and I said, you know, what's the difference between that even before? Zero's I said what's the difference between that and Jonestown and there is no difference. Both of them were paranoid and I think somewhat insane both groups and I think all people like that are a little bit not but I got to do a little bit of a kick out of how quick the Soviet Union backed off. (00:24:19) Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much for calling. Thank you, bye-bye. We have more callers with comments on Father cares. Let's take our next listener now. Hi, you're on the air. (00:24:28) Hi. I have some kind of said I was looking thinking about having listened to once before and thought of first, you know, I think of how blind we are to interpret slavery as a higher order of of a socialist experiment and looking at the elitism that that Jones had developed around him. I disagree with a collar that City had a with those who look at his experiment is being non-racist. I seem is incredibly racist that he he had a system of slavery and an elitist core that were strict lines of authority with a red guard that were towards the end that were was to me clear on the tape and in my senses is that he had incredible insight into himself and comments that he made about directly to the people that you don't know what I'm even about now. You don't know About me you're stupid. You're dumb and in the end when he said really don't be a fool to to die for the fascist fascist. It was as though he was talking of himself and of his own Red Guard coming back from town or however in that that if they didn't kill themselves, he had a group of people that was going to kill them for him. And (00:25:41) so he was almost warning the people about himself in a way (00:25:45) in a way the theme I heard throughout his the second time and again it it struck me the other piece because of listening to the comments on the other night from the black culturist as I listened again to me is white it was that he talked I'd like to hear from a black person. He talked black and he talked white and that there's differences in the English when a language when he talked to that senior who wanted to come home and he said get out of my face. That's not white talk. No. He I don't know white folks who talk like that. That he was able to cross those cultures as as a seduction and and it's chilling it to chilled me the second time that I listened to it and I will probably listen to it again the books to (00:26:31) thank you very much for calling appreciate your views this afternoon two two seven six thousand is the telephone number in the Twin Cities. If you can pick us up outside Minneapolis st. Paul toll-free. The number is eight hundred six five two 9700. We have another caller on the line. Hello. You're on the air. (00:26:50) Hello. If the I'd like to feel that I think you did a terrific service to give people the chance to express their feelings about this kind of thing out in public ingredient that I'd like to add is and I listened on Thursday night a woman called in from Ohio would known him in church where he started out very young and she described how the her the atmosphere was with an atmosphere of love and she felt That's just what he created there and then you know, she was very young then and then she didn't know him after that and I just kind of putting that together with how he talked about hate a lot when they finally got to Guyana and the paranoia and so forth it that he built up and it seems to me as if perhaps when he started, you know, I don't know for what reason but that he started out with a great need himself. And as I guess we all have a need for love and so he wanted to try to create that. He had the power to get across to an audience. And for some reason it didn't work for him and So eventually it it kind of flipped over into the opposite, but the people that followed him were looking for love to and you know, somebody mentioned that he held out hope for them and I would say that it was that's almost the same thing and so my sense is To avoid the trap for the people in several people have said Independence or free thinking and so forth and I think this another quality to that if we're able to accept ourselves and take care of ourselves and take care of each other. Then we can fulfill that without having to have a leader who promises it and you know and can deliver and so that's (00:28:45) well. That's an interesting observation. Thank you very much for calling. Okay. Thank you hearing from you. We have more listeners with comments about father cares. Hello. You're on the air. (00:28:54) Hello. I'd like to say that I agree with the previous caller in a matter because I think the country is set up in its educational system for the people to be submissive to any religious or political belief. They're taught to comply and to stay in line and not to think for themselves and when they get older and the pressures of reality T start hitting up on them and they get desperate then they will comply to people like Jim Jones because he gives them a (00:29:33) hope. Well, no, this happened with maybe a thousand people out of the country of many billions. Yes. And so I wonder on what grounds you in you indict the educational system and the value system in the (00:29:47) country. Well because there are Jones towns to a greater or lesser degree currently in the country and because of the educational system as I say, it's ignored like Vietnam, you know pointlessly going off to Napalm women and children, you know, people come back maimed with no gratitude or anything just fulfilling a manifest Destiny or political belief the Nazis and the clan Christian. This is the Christian faction because the clams don't burn crosses because they're huge. And over I'm saying, too. Oh and big business, you know, this is for progress is for modern technology, you know, it's okay to pollute and everybody complies and they said yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I truly do believe that. It does permeate the whole society to a greater or lesser degree in because Jim Jones may have been a paragon of the example. I say just the tip of the iceberg in that that same sort of things going on right now at the (00:30:54) moment. Okay. Thank you very much for calling and she ain't hearing from you. Bye we have another caller with a comment on Father cares. Hello. You're on the (00:31:02) air Hi. How are you? (00:31:04) I'm fine. How are you? (00:31:05) All right. I just wanted to comment on the people in the United States and all over the world really now. It seems that they're all putting their faith into their preachers or into their Minister when actually they should be putting their faith into the word of God, you know, and they said that it says in the scriptures that do not put another guy before me. These people seem to have put Jim Jones as their God and it's going on all over all these Cults that are going on and if people want to have something to believe in all they have to do is believe in the word of God and believe that Jesus Christ did come as their savior he died for their sins. They don't have to put their faith into somebody preaching the Bible because the Bible can be interpreted in so many different ways and I just wanted to comment on that. My life hasn't been all Rosy and cheerful. But since I have started reading the word of God and you know, putting my faith into that a lot of things have gone better, I would never put a man on this Earth as my Superior or somebody I should follow and I think people should start waking up to that fact. It seems like the country is just ignorant on the fact of you know, how people are out here. The ministers are preaching and things people are just being very easy. And letting them reading reading them people eat them to believe that they are (00:32:32) superior. Okay. Thank you so much for calling appreciate hearing from you. We have more callers with comments on Father cares. Hello. You're on the air. (00:32:40) Yes a you remember a while back here. They were talking about people that thinking that they were Garden all this thing and they were asking him some people know if they were new anybody like that. Well, I just happened to catch that and I thought to myself. Well Jesus saying that the ask me what we're asking somebody like that are asking anybody if they knew you know, I thought well I could call because I know I was out where I'm working with is we have people that think you only oh jeez, you know, I was made you know, like other people. We were all made by God. So he says except for one thing that God had appointed had made us off and but he appointed me as his (00:33:39) son. Okay, (00:33:41) we'll get your son to take care of things while I'm on (00:33:44) Earth. Sure. Well, thank you very much for calling appreciate hearing from you. Hello. You're on the air. (00:33:49) Hello. I'd like to commend Minnesota Public Radio for bringing the issue of Jonestown to our attention again, and I like to to respond to several speakers that I've heard. Very easy to move away from the pain and the tragedy in the horror that 9911 people committing suicide causes very easy to be distant from the pain inside myself. When I think about that very easy to move on looking for simple answers to explain what happened at Jonestown and yet it seems to me incredibly ironic that the very thing that Jim Jones offered his people were simple answers and I've heard a number of colors trying to simplify what I perceive as an incredibly complex event. (00:34:38) Okay. Well, we appreciate hearing from you. Thank you. Thank you very much for calling 2276 thousand is the telephone number in the Twin Cities and lines occasionally open up as people drop off. If you have a comment we'd like to hear from you this afternoon about father cares the last of Jonestown the 90-minute documentary that we just broadcast. Hello. You're on the air. What's your comment (00:34:59) yesterday? It occurs? As I listen to part of your program and also the call in a number of people have talked about the need for people to think for themselves and not to blindly follow leaders and I fully agree with that. But one of the reasons why it is seems to be you seldom done is that it's a tremendous burden to have to find your own way through life after wrestle with every every problem that comes up and every philosophical confrontation. But I guess this just point this extreme case Jonestown kind of points up the need for that that even though it's easy to follow someone else's simple answers or let someone else do your thinking if we're going to survive and it's Planet we're going to have to wrestle with all our all these things ourselves. That's all I'm saying. (00:35:42) Thank you. Thank you very much for calling appreciate hearing from you. Hello, you're on the air (00:35:47) that may be the things that people can do to take steps to be to kind of protect themselves from this kind of manipulation is just to be aware of some very basic. Six of psychological manipulation manipulation that Jim Jones and other people whether religious political or military figures can employ on a such as instituting Stockholm Cinema. I've seen when he was in a tapes when Jim Jones was redressing that one older black hole that wanted to come home that he was first, you know being very threatening to him and then turning right around within the next couple minutes saying, you know reassuring things which tends to bring out Stockholm syndrome in people and it's just by being aware that there are very basic tactics like that of manipulation that can be employed. Maybe our people can be what you know a little bit immunized coming. (00:36:49) Okay. Thank you very much for calling. Whoops, please when you call turn your radios down the couple of people have had their radios right on the bridge right on the brink of feeding back and we'd like to avoid that. Shortly before you go on you'll be able to hear yourself or be able to hear the program in your telephone. So just keep your radio down when you go on the air. We have another caller with a comment. Hi, you're on the (00:37:12) air good afternoon. First of all, I'd like to thank NPR again for everything that they do which this one program was just a short part. I have two observations as I watched this show or heard it the second time. I was struck by a comment that the narrative made at the beginning when he said that most of the people who left the church did so when the church was moved to Guyana and I think there are two questions that people often ask themselves about this whole episode and one is how could it happen and to could I be involved in something like this and I think you when you think about that fact that most of the people who are upset by the language and the rumors of some of the behavior that was going on in the cult not to covet the church. Left I think that points out that what was left in Jonestown was really a distilled group of very very strong economical followers and that goes beyond race or religion or whatever. It really gets back to the point that those worthy hardcore followers. And that's how the the mass suicide could have taken place because these folks believe everything from A to Z of what Reverend Jones was saying the second point. I think a lot of people ask themselves. Well could this happen to me? I have been in those kinds of conversations with people since Jonestown and I think sometimes people tend to smear when you say well I don't think it could happen to me and I don't think I would have done it and I wouldn't have followed the fact that matters. I think if you have to ask yourself or really have to wonder whether you would have been part of it. Well then chances are that maybe might because I think if you have a strong sense of yourself and and the ability to try and Search for Direction by yourself without crutches and without the need to be led by people. I don't think that question really occurs to you. (00:39:09) All right? Thank you very much for calling. Thank you. Appreciate hearing from you. We have more callers with comments on Father cares. Hi, you're on the (00:39:16) air. Hi. I'd like to make a comment on the woman who talked about the Masada before Okay, the reason that I want to call is because I do agree with what happened on Masada. I am because everybody in their own mind knew what was going to happen to him in Masada. They all knew firsthand by looking and by seeing what would happen to them and whereas in the case in Jonestown. They didn't know what was really going to happen to him. They took it from Jim Jones who told them what was going to happen, and they really didn't know and that's why I agree with what happened in Masada and why I agree with it, and why don't can understand what happened in Jonestown. And also I'd like to thank you for your broadcast. It was absolutely (00:39:57) fabulous. Okay? Well, thank you very much for calling the appreciate those. And words. Okay. Okay, bye-bye. We're more callers with comments. Hello. You're on the (00:40:06) air. Yes. Good afternoon. Thank you. I'd like to give your listeners perhaps a different perspective. I'm 36 years old and I was for four years member of an organization in the Twin Cities area here which I do believe to be a cult and I would like to make a few comments number one with the Cults and I am involved working with people across the United States for the most part. We are not concerned with the religious beliefs, but we are concerned with the methods that they are using to manipulate people to manipulate their personalities to manipulate their thoughts. For for normally for the leaders own benefit in game. Now when I left the organization, I did not understand mind control in spite of the fact that I had studied it when I began studying it then I felt guilty. I thought I must be very very weak. So I did go through psychological testing. I went through a psychiatrist and the feedback that I got was that I was an extremely strong and independent person. So then my next question was if this is the case. Then how did I get pulled into a cult when I go back and look at it? I have to say that I did not know first of all that it was a religion or a church and you find this many times in the Cults. They are not always as Jim Jones starting out as a church many times. They are addressing people on social issues or health and nutrition or political issues in so you find here a form of deception and fraud. Secondly, the Cults are very Good psychologist in many ways. In other words, they have the ability to pick out those people in a crowd who are vulnerable. Now, we all go through crises. We all have times of vulnerabilities in our life, but what the cult to do instead of assisting people to work through those vulnerabilities and help them to find their own resolutions to those crises is to prey upon those vulnerabilities in those times of crises in people's lives their own Advantage. (00:42:34) Thank you very much for calling them. We appreciate that point of view. We have some other callers and we ought to get on to hear what they have to say as well two two seven six thousand is the telephone number in the Twin Cities. Hi, you're on the air. (00:42:46) I would just like to make a comment that I think that the majority of the people that were in that quote were people that were in trouble with the law people that were strung on drugs people that you know, the poor pores of people that were in the college and it seems to me that they were the kind of people that We're looking for something in their life. And that's how they got involved with the Jim Jones. (00:43:09) Okay. Well, thank you very much for calling. Okay. Thank you. Bye bye. We have more callers with comments on Father cares. Let's take our next listener. Hi, you're on the air. (00:43:17) Hello. I'd like to thank you very much for having this program on the air and I'd like to say that I think that we as Americans should take this as a warning history seems to repeat itself and everybody says that things like the Holocaust could couldn't happen again. It would never happen here. But the fact is that it did happen here and it did happen as an offshoot of our society and I think one of the things that draws people to this kind of thing is that they have easy answers And they they lay out everything for you. And that's so much more comfortable to accept those kinds of things than to really think for yourself and really think through and really understand how to how to learn and how to teach yourself about what is true. And what is right and I think that that if we think of this as a as a lone example that we won't learn from it, we won't learn this can happen here if we don't teach ourselves how to think and how to be an independent people. (00:44:26) Thank you very much for calling. Thank you. Appreciate hearing from you today. Hello. You're on the air. May we have your comment, please? (00:44:32) Yeah, I'm really can't abide by all the the lessons of people are trying to draw here. They're they're trying to blame it on drugs or religion or the educational system the draw parallels to the Nazis and the Holocaust I would think an obvious parallel would be to draw. Lessons from this about communism. Jim Jones was continually referring to courts of Marx and Lenin. He called his little town Jonestown e a socialist republic he talked about change through the barrel of a gun. His paranoia was typical of the paranoia of communist leaders like Lenin. I just I'm baffled that people aren't trying to draw any lessons from this about communism. He seemed to Jim Jones seem to mention socialism and communism and hatred for capitalism much more than he mentioned God and it's very puzzling. I don't know what's wrong with this country. (00:45:34) Okay. Well, thank you very much for calling. Okay, appreciate hearing from you. We have another caller with a comment here on the air. (00:45:41) Hello. I was just concerned that perhaps this Jonestown Affair may have been partially the cause of the Increased racism and bigotry in this country and they sense that since eighty percent of those people in Jonestown were black that it probably made black people look like fools and obviously groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the Nazis could to just point to that and say see how inferior this particular race is. And of course the truth is that at least the poverty-stricken and the black people would probably be a little more vulnerable to something like this simply because of their economic and social situation rather than any innate to inferiority, but I fear that something like this does tend to increase contempt for a particular race and it's I seem to notice to of it Jim Jones him to appeal not so much out of love for himself. The the way the media has seemed to say that there are other people just worshipped him but listening to those tapes it seemed more like Jim. Jones got his support more and got people stirred up to commit to suicide by by hatred of the enemy more than love of himself. The fact that the fascists are coming and we cannot allow them to conquer so that we'd be superior if we kill ourselves rather than let the enemy take over and he always talked about the enemy of the fascists and that seemed to be a what I heard more than that. This was more the motivation of the people who ultimately did themselves in and it seems to me that there are a lot of conservative religious groups who are using the same technique of playing on people's fears rather than unloved their leader to get support and I'm thinking of people like is dr. Jerry Falwell of the Old Time Gospel Hour course, he is encouraging people to so much into a suicide or into any a very tight. Knit two Clans, but he certainly is getting an awful lot of money and votes from people through a his own appeals talking about is a decade of Destiny is less than 90 days away and he just can't carry this burden much longer. He's says I'm being torn in all directions. So I had to leave my office and come home to you and write you this personal letter and then of course he appeals for funds and he says you've got to help because America is going to lose her Liberties in the 1980s because of her sin and then he talks about all the enemies government is harassing the free enterprise system. Our military power is falling behind the Soviet Union. The feminist movement (00:48:32) is okay. I think we pretty well got your got your message there, sir. Thank you very much for calling. Hang on to some other colors and it's getting near the end of the hour. So we're going to be calling a halt to this at just a little bit before two o'clock, but we do have some more people with comments on Father cares. (00:48:48) Hi, you're on the air. Yeah, I'm a father and got seven grandsons. I'd like to put my little bit in here with my own voice way, they grew up and rebuild like most kids do and and at that time looking back at a guilt complex over the various things that I went through and they seem to get their motivations from that kind of rejection. And (00:49:31) so how does this tie in with (00:49:33) fell I think it ties in with a lot of these young people are calling up in there and I think they're confused. Like my grandson's have been and luckily I've been able to have some influence on my grandson's growing up and I tempered their condemnations I think and I think it's showing Desirable effect I think for young people anything anyone that gets up and has any Dogma or or philosophy that sounds reasonable. They tend to be motivated by that rebellion of starts young people to reject what they came from and carry on into something that can be just like Jones to I think any one of my children our grandchildren could have been a victim of Jonestown just like the people that were there were (00:50:36) okay. Well, thank you for calling sir. We appreciate hearing from you this afternoon. We have another caller with a comment. Hi, you're on the air. (00:50:43) Yes. I was interested in several the callers who talked about the individual not giving up his right for independent thinking and to be a strong independent thinker and I had read a book. Go call the mind manipulators, which was taken from 10,000 Declassified CIA and army documents. And one of the things that I found interesting was that in 1950 the CIA developed a project called Bluebird and their ultimate purpose was to understand the means and methods necessary to control individuals their personality to manipulate the individual to do and think as they wanted to see and some of the things that they included as their goals with all possible means for the measurement in the alteration or control of the personality and some of the means that they used were some of the same things that I find in some of the Cults and they included fatigue hunger fear deception hypnosis stress tension and control of six. (00:51:51) Okay. Thank you very much for calling them. We're going to move on take one more caller and then we're going to have a brief summary of news and move on. Many programs this afternoon our last caller of the afternoon higher on the air. (00:52:02) Hello. I was quite interested in listening to your comments as well. As there are people were talking about cults of Moral Majority. You name it? It's interesting how in Nazi Germany a country which has been traditionally had been traditionally quite liberal up until that point when Hitler actually took over we were able to sit by and let this go on. Well, they were traditionally quite liberal in the fact that they did protect individual rights for quite a long time in the 19th century and then do two philosophical changes in the politics of it all they began to protect the corporate rights of the state the larger rights of the state me as an individual. I am no longer an individual but my rights are part of the of the state. Reminds me of also a lot of current Day events. I know for instance Tom Hayden for instance from old SDS. What is heat? Has he been talking about the the violation of Rights by North Vietnam in South in South mint Vietnam after they took over as well as we're is it kampuchea now? And as well as you name it moral majority in the name of whatever it may be McCarthy area era anti-capitalism violating in individual right to know my father was called and a communist fascist by the state department if you can put that one together, I don't know. Well, you know, and in any case this reminds me to the fact that how we as individuals actually give up our rights as individuals for the rights of some corporate Society like the Jim Jones situation. From comp and as well as the state. (00:54:02) Okay. Well, thank you very much for calling. We appreciate hearing from you this afternoon. We've been visiting with you in the audience about the documentary that we broadcast from 11:30 to 1 documentary on Jonestown father cares the last of Jonestown produced by National Public Radio based on tapes that James Reston found on his trip to Guyana shortly after the tragedy and late November of 1978 James Reston Junior also author of the book about the same tragedy called Our Father who art in hell