John Milton is director of the Minnesota Energy agency. Michael Murphy is Project leader for the Upper Midwest Council. Both gentlemen had to spend a lot of time researching questions related to energy and we're fortunate enough to have both of them in our Saint Paul Studios this afternoon in for about the next 47 minutes gentlemen, we're going to put some questions to you on energy matters. And for about half of that time will allow listeners a towards the latter half of the discussion to call in and ask questions of you two will be giving out those phone numbers so shortly. I was moved to try to interest you in this discussion Gentleman by a news item about a month ago when we learned that natural gas prices will increase 15 to 20% each year for the next several several years According to some expert with 1983's prices, perhaps double what they are right now. Well a lot of us have been insulating our homes. We've been spending a fair amount of money for insulation and we see these Rising fuel costs and it's the middle one. I'll put it to you first. You think it's still way.Nice for people to be spending a lot of money on insulation when it looks as though we're going to be spending a lot more money on natural gas to remember when you're looking at those higher cost for natural gas. Even with insulation is that without insulation? They would still be a good deal higher. So the cause of rising Energy prices natural gas prices and other prices it that makes it even more useful to the homeowner more saving for the homeowner to make the kinds of insulation Investments that have made sense all along and mr. Murphy should people be thinking about Alternatives at this point to natural gas. Is that a realistic item for them to be considering at this point as we view the increase of prices always think about the alternative is I think however that individuals are residences or or or businesses are going to have to take a look at their particular economic situation and see whether or not it warrants them changing 2 or so.Play the solar from natural gas or two would or whatever and that's something that they have to decide for themselves. I think one of the things about saving too and it's become a little bit obvious right now is that there's been an increase in the availability of natural gas in in the last few months. A lot of that is due to conservation. A lot of that is due to the industry finding some new supplies and that will make it possible for a potentially to reduce some oil imports over a very short. Of time and and maybe make some gas available to some people might not otherwise habit and that will tend to save some people some money to indirectly send some figures here might be useful agencies made some forecast of what natural gas prices are have to do under different circumstances. We've taken an average residential natural gas cost for winter and 79 of $354 and because of price increases that the would be occurring even if the national energy act hadn't passed that would increaseAbout $654 in 1985 about $300 more now as a result of the national National energy act that's expected to go up to about $724 or 11% more than would otherwise be the case. If we assume that the homeowner is going to practice conservation and we've used the figure of 3% saving a year during this. Of time. Then that would bring the cost down to $604. So the price is going up in anyway and the homeowner can help insulate himself against that cost in price by doing conservation. So the savings are possible and you've brought up the subject. So we may as well attack the question about the legislation passed by Congress signed by President Carter. It allows some tax credit for homeowners and businesses. If they conserve energy if they buy certain devices with Olivia alternate to Alternative Energy devices and install them in place of old devices, I put the general question to both.On first is it you're feeling that those tax credits in that energy legislation are enough indeed to induce people to conserve energy and to move ahead on this issue up for reducing their Reliance on fossil fuels everyone reacts the same way, but the other fairly significant tax credits, it amounts to 15% attack spit up to $300 in the tax credits. And the that's a significant financial incentive in addition to the Savings in terms of lower energy costs or what otherwise would have to be paid in addition. There are a solar tax incentives that range up to $2,200. In addition. There are programs on the national energy act that require energy suppliers to conduct Audits and provide financing for homeowners.So there's quite a raft of different kinds of things under the national energy act that benefit the homeowner as well as some things in the natural gas Siri that are going to be higher prices and we'll talk about that issue of deregulation. Are you as optimistic? Mr. Murphy most people sufficient incentive to go ahead that the tax credit combined with a higher price as we talked about earlier. It is a very large incentive. I think there's one problem area. I'd like to point out and that is it. There are certain people who are in that category that we describe from being Indigent the low income fixed income people who don't have the ability most times to accumulate adequate Capital. They have a home that that is going to require five six seven hundred dollars retrofitting to improve their on their on their Energy Efficiency. How do they gather the money to do that? Then? I think that that I don't I don't believe that the federal law pays enough attention to that all night.That's something that perhaps has to be addressed at the state level and and I think that in the future some additional effort at the federal level. What do you think about that? Mr. Milhoan will that issue of where to find resources for retrofitting? Will the state be moving on that? Do you think I agree with Mike very much that this is an area that has been ignored it both the federal and state level. My first choice would be some kind of a fuel stamps or energy stamps or income transfer of payments at the national level. That would be based upon specific need. I think this is the way to deal with the harsh impact on low income in fixed-income people of the result of her energy prices. I think the national Administration if it takes the market approach it as it is to accomplish energy conservation must recognize the harsh impact that has on those who have the least ability to pay. Well gentlemen, we can sit in Saint Paul and wonder a lot about what the future holds for energy supplies this winter and that's inQuestion will be getting too and just a moment is the supply of energy for Minnesota this winter the Minnesota public radio stations around the state of Minnesota have many other concerns it on the line with us right now. We have Alan Sherrill of NPR's wcsd and Duluth Allen your question for mr. Miltona. Mr. Murphy is right here in northern Minnesota. See you legislative committee and Minnesota resources has been studying teeth for some time as have several gas companies. What does the future hold for peace in Minnesota?The development of Pete is very attractive and should have should occur. At least we should undertake some pilot studies indicate how well it can be done. Minnesota has half the feet in the lower 48 states and Pete has a very attractive potential resource that has a btu content similar in poundage to that of lignite coal and the volumes of like feet are similar to lignite Coal as well. So it's a very significant the potential energy resource currently. There is some laboratory work that's been done that indicates that it could be gasified very easily and the next step there would be some kind of pilot project smaller than the large commercial scale. That would actually be located in the Pee Dee area for the production of gas from Pete. I think at this point the problems are not the the technology involved the problems are the environmental implications of using peat.Institutional problems associated with setting the price for Pete and terman and what kind of business Enterprise would operate the peak gasification project? Cuz that is with turning up late night calling North Dakota International gas. We haven't been terribly successful. So far the then the problems are institutional lunch primarily as John alludes to the cost of of that conversion process in and I think the economies are quite similar between turning cold a gas or oil or pita gas. So the situation is such that it's just not at yet economical without some quite High subsidy or some guarantee through to the developers of these projects that they can in fact recover their losses. If it doesn't work or increase the price of gas today to finance the future development and so far Regulatory Agencies have with student and oppose those kinds of requests and then most recently the symphony gas proposal in North Dakota wasWas backed away from by his proponents because I just didn't see it in the car and stuff most experts I think would say that that as we move ahead with higher natural gas prices because of the federal government and other events that we might see something like this in towards the late 1990s on its own merits 1990s a considerable amount of time away in the short term for the long-term. Perhaps a promising Source welded pipeline issue is not going to go away whether you be from a Northern Tier state or from a central state in our United States and John Gatto NPR's John Gatto at klse in Southeastern. Minnesota is on the line with us right now with a question on that. John Northern pipeline project that is that has been proposed to run through this region of the state and it has caused quite a bit of concern among the citizens who own properties we're on this pipeline is proposed to go through I guess aside from thoseI from those concerns, I guess what I'm wondering is just how how how soon will this pipeline be completed? If and when it is ever finally approved and what kind of immediate effect would it have on, Minnesota? Are they in the construction time for the pipeline is given something in the range of 1 year that so I think fairly optimistic but with the work at several locations, I think it may be possible. I think we have because of the problems at the regulatory level not only in Minnesota but in Iowa particularly, I miss the chance of having that pipeline in place before the winter of 7980. And now our concern is that the regulatory process is be completed in time to have the pipeline in place before the winter of 80 80 80 81. And I'm concerned too as to what part that plays in the refineries how much of the oil that would come through that pipeline. Mr. Milhorn would to serve the state's refineries Minnesota historically has been 90% depended upon Canadian crude oil that is being curtailed. We do have a new pipeline up from the south that provides part of the need that that were for oil it was from Canada, but the the adequate supplies for the operation of Minnesota refineries at the capacitive. It will need in the future to avoid problems won't be mad unless we get an additional pipeline in and through the certificate of need process looking at which facilities are Justified that have been completed for the northern pipeline show that that pipeline is needed if we're going to have the sufficient operating capacity at the refineries to meet our future needs. Mr. Murphy there two kinds of kind of problems involved in this is Ensure. We have adequate supplies are $2 on our refineries and then there's any number of reasons for that but it's it's so important for our economy. There is a need to operate all refineries in this country because we haven't built very many of those past several years for a number of reasons, but there's the other side of this too is that is if there isn't a pipeline we possibly can get within reason sufficient supplies of of a crude oil or petroleum products up here to meet to a Minnesota consumers needs but the price of that is going to be a specific substantially higher then it would be happy if we had the northern pipeline or any kind of Pipeline and when we look around at the other Alternatives that are available frankly, I don't believe there are any other Alternatives available this time that are timely and economical there are certainly Alternatives in a course if we rule out the most economical and most timely one then you get to the next rest and then and on and on and on it and we risk that kind of thing in this situation. Sometimes if we don't begin to make some decisions fairly soon at pipeline issue will certainly be with us for a Time on it Ridgid Shay NPR's Brigid Shea of kccm in Fargo-Moorhead is standing by with a question for I guess John Mulholland director of the Minnesota Energy agency and Michael Murphy of the Upper Midwest Council Bridget, go ahead a little bit but not specifically about the proposal from Seattle to Clearbrook Court in conjunction with Minnesota Energy agency held some hearings in Crookston two months back and the status of the line was unclear to me after those hearing and I'm just curious about the current status is line. I haven't heard too much about it since then and I'm wondering where the plans are with it right now in Minnesota for a pie. Find a be built within the state. It must receive a certificate of need from me as director of the Minnesota Energy agency. The hearings in Crookston were brought about by Northern Tier application for certificate of need for the Minnesota portion of that pipeline. Then the process after the hearing is for the hearing examiner to examine the evidence in the transcript and come up with a recommendation to me on whether the certificate should be granted or denied. The hearing examiner currently has that the transcript and his laboring over that decision within the next few weeks. The hearing examiner will make a recommendation to me then the ball comes over to to me and I look at the hearing examiner's recommendations at transcript and Exhibits in and make the decision on whether or not the Northern Tier pipeline. It should get a certificate of need or not. They statutory limits that process to six months. It was started to in late June so My decision on Northern Tier is scheduled late in December mister, mister Murphy. What about that process? The various steps involved. I should tack this question under bridges question. Do you think the process is working? Well, I think it is stated in this state is working reasonably well, but I think that that minnesotans who are interested in the Northern Tier pipeline have to look west of here to see what's happening in in the state of Washington in the state of Montana. What's happening even in California. The Northern Tier line was was originally predicated on the belief that we would have a massive surplus of Alaskan oil on the west coast and if we could only move the All-American oil by The All-American route to the All American people, we would have sought everybody's problems. Well, it appears that the Surplus on the west coast is diminishing. We we know for sure that the refineries in this region can't use just Alaskan oil because of its chemical content at half. We have to use other other crude oil here to to be efficient. And most importantly that lines going to take a long time to built there is substantial opposition to it and I just learned of a of a new twist the other day that under the the federal coastal zone Management program a new ruling in Washington has regarding the state and Washington DC regarding the State of Washington's coastal zone Management program, May rule out the construction of a major oil Port of Port Angeles Washington. And if that's true, then there won't be any Northern Tier pipeline the point of all this is that it is I see it. Is that our needs for a new pipeline come a great deal sooner than can the Northern Tier and I'm not against Northern Tier pipeline. I think if there is a need to move large volumes of oil from the Pacific coast into the Midwest, then we ought to let those alternative proposals. I shake themselves out on their own merits, but I think that minnesotans in particular have to look a lot closer to home to a route from the south that can be here much more quickly and and more beneficial to us. The time is 12:30. That was Michael Murphy of the Upper Midwest counseling with him today John. Milhoan. Director of the Minnesota Energy agency, we're talking about energy or taking questions from listeners will be giving out a telephone number in just a couple of minutes that you can call and ask questions of mr. Murphy and no hun. Now we travel to Southwestern Minnesota and NPR's Jim boy who has a question. Go ahead gym. Oh, yes, then we are quite heavily into natural gas out in this into the state one of our concerns. Is the number of plants schools hospital to Etc that can switch from either coal-to-gas depending upon I need and Supply. Our question is whose responsibility is it private Enterprise those supplying natural gas or someone such as the energy agency that Mr. Telephone represents to monitor consumption and make us aware as to the reserves remaining when we get down into January and February were thinking especially of the Dayton Ohio's Cleveland, Ohio situation of a year or two ago. Alliant Energy agency has the responsibility under statute to service the information center for energy supplies in the state. And we monitor those supplies of birth closely during winter heating season. Now this fortunately for Minnesota. We have a large number of customers that are large institutional or industrial customers using natural gas who purchase another interruptible contracts under which the when the gas isn't there they are required to switch to some alternate fuel then they maintain some standby energy resource used by some kind of heating oil and then Minnesota is unusual among that states compared with say Ohio in the amount of interrupt will contracts that are used. This means that when the the rest of the country suffers natural gas shortage like it did in the winter 7677 Minnesota. We have a fuel oil shortage and that's why fuel oil was the fuel the energy source that we heard so much about than the winner of 7. 677 and our emergency a declaration our plan was aimed at the conserving fuel oil. So we would have enough to get through that winter. We are watching that very closely are the supplies now our little bit below what they were a year ago supplies are both gasoline and fuel oil are down and this is as a cause of concern since in the refinery and movement of distillates are heating oil and gasoline are these often times it'll replace one another so it's up situation that that we're responsible for monitoring and there are problems that start develop we think will know well in advance. I don't like you really contribute any more than what John said that I think that that the prospects for having what you call in quotes adequate natural gas supplies for this winter look pretty good. But but that includes certain kinds of users will be curtailed During certain periods are the winter and they will switch to to oil. I think that is the extent to which those we will have to switch to oil or some of these uses is as they don't mention their schools are or whatever is going to be a function of the weather very certainly and that weather of course could be a very important element of a number of energy questions. We're going to take some questions from listeners and just a moment will give out the phone number that you can call for our Saint Paul Studios to ask question of mr. Melon. Mr. Murphy do to 11552. Telephone number is 221-1550. Please make your question as brief as possible will get to as many questions as we can in the next. Oh, I'd say 25 minutes or so that we can allow this discussion to run on I do have a couple of One of them related to the question from Jimboy's gentleman before we take the calls from listeners. And that is the issue of coal. Lisa's not long ago. We saw a report from a private study group indicating that Lisa's of coal lands held by some in this country are not being developed as fast as we thought they would be developed and the coal has been touted as our savior for energy for some time by number of people is it your impression is traumeel home that a number of the lands least two people for their coal resources are not being developed as quickly as they should be. I think that the the cold development is occurring as fast as the department of energy and the administration's plan for coal use called for the to say that this is somehow a conspiratorial attitude by the cold landowners that they're holding back for a higher prices. I don't think accurately describes a situation. There are a number of uncertainties about how rapidly we will need additional supplies of court in the energy area. We're really dealing with a sort of a gargantuan systems problem. And one of the concerns is how much natural gas has been saving how much natural gas will be available. How will be the price of natural gas and therefore how swiftly will Cole replace natural gas as an energy resource were some of the larger industrial uses of very serious additional question involves. The application of the Clean Air Act Amendments of states are in the process of developing State implementation plans that call for a certain measures. In order to clean up the ambient air quality, these have implications in terms of how much coal can be burned and where the coal can be used and this then that causes additional uncertainties about the demand for coal. So I think that the primary reason for the less rapid development of coal resources has been these considerations environmental in price competition questions rather than any holding back on the on-call developments, do you think enough for the coal leases? Hope I don't know that I can answer that question. I don't know what is enough. You know, one of the things we have to do. This is an odd question and I'm sure that I'm sure as I sit here that there are coal companies in speculators out there who have picked up Lisa's relatively cheaply in the past compared to now and and they're holding them speculating on the future and that's no different than somebody buying land in The Fringe area of the Twin Cities and holding at the developer in the future, you know, if there weren't some words in the regulations and laws at that say that they must that these leases must be developed in they do and diligent mean or whatever they call it and I don't think there would be any there would be any flak incongruous is it may be that the very people who are citing the coal industry people for not moving fast enough are the same people who oppose mining whatsoever and that is because they are but they wanted they want to discredit the industry and I'm going and I'm not going to sit here and talk the industry's marriage because cold and we have a lot of problems and do the same to you and I don't agree with it, but I think that that to pursue Turn off white hat black hat in. This thing is it's not terribly productive Cole is isn't in the best best referred to as a demand limited fuel. That is it right. Now. We are using all of the oil and natural gas. We can possibly get out of the ground and and it's a very tight situation continually are reasonably tight. That's not true with Cole to build or to utilize Cole. First of all, you have to have a power plant that takes 10 years to build it and they have to golf a coal mine takes four or five years to build and and you have to create a market for it or you have to identify a market and then identify a source and then you serve it and so it is speculated and Lisa's a great deal of Landon in Southeastern Montana for coal mine and he's going to wait he does that on the basis of whether or not there's going to be a market out there and when the market comes and in wants to use the cold that he has then he's going to find it. All right gentlemen, the listeners are with us and they are waiting to ask questions of you. So we will go to them right now. We gave out a telephone number that we should correct a we should give out a different number. We are giving out to to 11550 number of folks have called that number. Let's see if I understand this note correctly several folks are calling to to 11515 and that of course is because I didn't give it to two clearly. So I'll say it this way to to 11550. There we go. Now I think we can get a few more calls will take the first call good afternoon John milhoan and Michael Murphy are listening earlier, but what they have the money to retrofit or to build back to energy-efficient home work. Where is there tax credit in what way can these people you know games the same thing as someone else who has actually a lot more money. When they are submitting their income their federal income tax payment, they would list a tax credit in that returned and then they would get the benefit from that and reduce federal taxes. And what is the amount? Do you know the amounts involved in the amounts involved for conservation Investments are 15% up to a credit of $300. So that would cover a and conservation investment of up to $2,000. All right, and that's retroactive to April of 1977. Yes. All right, we have other question is waiting will take the next one. Good afternoon. I guess they're listening law of finance that the price of natural gas keeps going up for the very same reason that your salary keeps going up. Most other folks salaries do go up both because we want more money, but we people want more money and in the the cost of paying salaries in the cost of paying for materials and equipment and services and he seems all go up at at the at the rate of inflation and in some in some ways even higher end and if we're going to produce more gas in the future, we will also need to raise the prices that we're now paying much higher than the inflation rate in order to provide the the adequate kinds of incentives that will help us find more fuels in the future and the energy companies tell us to that. There are some unusual cost involved in that is the cost of exploration. One of them is to know about the unfortunate fact is that we're running out of the cheap and easily available sources of energy that used to be you could put a well down a few hundred feet in Oklahoma and there be so much oil there with spurt to the surface and all you have to do is capet then take it off and process it now. We're To go to the some of the most inhospitable parts of the globe to find a crude oil the North Slope of Alaska and no one would want to go there for a summer or winter vacation and similarly in the oil and gas that's found in the traditional areas. So easily available large supplies are being used up and we're having to go deeper to find smaller pockets of the petroleum Supply so that and then to add to this the US has searched for its supplies much more intensively than other countries in the world. So it's estimated that we found about two-thirds of our petroleum and natural gas. Well as the rest of the world is undiscovered about only one-third. So this imbalance that shows up in the balance of payment deficit appears to be even more serious constraint on the United States in the future and young people listening to begin thinking about careers and foreign to pay. Perhaps we have other colors waiting. We'll take the questions now. Good afternoon. I guess they're listening. Yes. Go ahead with your question, please. I'm calling from the other Minnesota kaxe in Grand Rapids how to program the timer still uncertain about about the DNR. exploitation of people with due to the level of our legs Those are all certainly a legitimate concerns many Gasko's role has been to provide some funds for the research involved in finding out what could be done to make gas out of Pete. This would be a synthetic natural gas that it could then use similar to the Natural Gas uses at the present time. So it's been initiator of research in this area. The role of the Department of Natural Resources is to protect the environment of Minnesota in those of people and areas much of them are owned by the state and it there has been a committee that has been looking at the possible use of Pete including several state agencies. The Department of Natural Resources has had the lead responsibilities and under this area. There have been a number of studies on the environmental impacts of Development including the effect on the pea plants themselves and the effect on the water level at the same time. The energy agency's role has been to participate in that committee and to focus questions and inquiry directly at the energy potential of the people resource. How much do we know about what Pete mining will do to water levels Flowing Wells artesian wells underground lake so on and so forth. What is the status of these studies? Probably the best source of information about what would happen is to look at some countries where a pit developments have occurred in in Ireland and Finland and the Soviet Union and Germany as well to some extent there have been extensive but Pete Land Development and there if they if that's a model you get a quite a transformation in the land use in the area affected locally often times. And so that gets into the so the philosophical question of whether any change is good or bad many of our peatlands area are not particularly productive in terms of plant life or or or animal life as well. And so some of these lands may be converted into different kinds of uses that would be more more productive, but they're there would be ecosystems associated with a pea plant that would be affected in change. So it's it's not an easy issue but it's one that I think we're putting a lot of effort into getting information so that we'll be able to provide information on the impacts for the legislators and other decision-makers in this area. I don't think that were faced with an imminent decision on mining Pete in the state either. I think that we have we have a reasonable. Of time. I mentioned earlier that I don't see things like this until into the 1990s. It doesn't mean that we wait a long time before we do anything but we do have time here to really take a look at these kinds of things. Then certainly as the as the technical research moves ahead in the feasibility and the economics begin to advance and certainly there will be a stirring of interest in taking a look at these things. And then of course you already almost have to zero in on more really specific locales to before you can really do really specific research and terms what it may mean for the service environment and surface and groundwater supplies in those kinds of things. But I think if we use our time while we can probably prepare ourselves for that we have other colors waiting with questions gentlemen will get to some of them now take the next one. Good afternoon. Mr. Mill haunted. Mr. Murphy are listening. Good afternoon. I have a question for both gentlemen tons of combustible refuse to dispose of each year. And we also have woods and Fields Lane with Fallen trees to plant the king crops another plant life which could be used for burning or for methane production for example for methane production. I was wondering if there are any plans for collection and processing of burnable materials like this or we're processing them from the general and makes an excellent point in my view in looking at the Alternative Energy development biomass for energy from Plants as one of the areas but hasn't received that kind of attention that should have at the national level. We're doing a number of things in Minnesota. We've conducted the provided funds for study on how much on an inventory of the forest residues that might be used for energy production. We've also looked at the fast-growing energy such as poppers that might be used to provide the energy for for a power plant. For example, we also have funded some research looking at the energy potential of cattails with your kind of an exciting energy crop in though. You might look in the future sometime to the draining of peat lands and then re flooding it and planting Cattails and having a significant energy source resource in northern, Minnesota in the future. So we are looking and have research in a number of those areas that he's mentioned and I give at a very high priority and farmers. Do you think would that be the most efficient way of collecting field refuse for example corn stalks would be local collection Point as opposed to some people who might Envision plans of large Regional energy centers me is some local refuse collection and also tying in with some kind of a manure collection that could develop a rather rough low be to you but usable form of methane gas. Now if you get beyond that you get into transportation problems, if you come quite serious also you and when the area that needs to be closely monitored as what kind of nutrients do you take off the land when you pick up the Agriculture residues and that can become a problem. I guess I'm usually more interested in what we can do it at the smaller-scale level. The more localized thing. If you have a high crop reducer who is somewhere adjacent to a hogger turkey facility that needs heat hours needs methane and you can you maybe can make some kind of linkage. There were these these private entrepreneurs can can solve each other's problem. I'm always concerned about if somebody gets into the massive collection and redistribution of of agricultural ways to produce methane and whatever that it involves some cost factors and some complications that that tend to forestall them coming to fruition or sometime reminded of that the difference between people collecting their own use crankcase oil and burning it for as opposed to the the burgeoning volume of Regulation, which is going to require every individual that wants to do to store it in such a manner that would be impossible to and so we I think we have to watch really carefully that we that we scale these things to really match. What is what is really possible until the weekend creates a man. Send to in rather rather than barriers to people getting into these things and similar problems would erupt. I suppose if everyone decided that they wanted to own a wood stove. For example to heat their home. We have other callers waiting with questions will go to them now. Good afternoon. You're on the air and that we are using all the oil and all the natural gas petroleum oil that we can get and it's been my observation that there been a lot of oil wells and lot of gas while the country that being capped. I'd like to know if he is aware of a federal government policy can't weld it and drilled it for some purpose of saving for a future time. There are well that I know about in Ohio natural gas well, and there are wells in Wyoming and I know the people involved in drilling those well All right, we'll tackle that question. Mr. Millhon. I know of no government policy that provides directives are regulations are requirement for capping Wells. Now, there are certain federal reserve's where there are areas of captive potential production. But those are quite clearly demarcated for that purpose. There are a number Wells petroleum and natural gas Wells that are cap. The primary reason for that is that those are in exploratory areas not associated with the collection pipelines and the volume that is produced in the earlier. Well discoveries isn't sufficient to make it financially feasible with the price being what it is at that time to build a pipeline that would tie that well field into some existing collection system and and that occurs quite frequently and results in a large number of capwell's and somewhat isolated Discovery areas then in time. The price goes up or as new wells are not developed in that area. You get the volume in the price that makes it worthwhile to build up the collection pipeline to that area. This is a highly competitive field too and I think the producers and end up and see the refining and Supply industry is going to try and go to those Wells that it can get energy out of it the most economical at the most economical rate agree with John. I don't know of any program besides they from the naval petroleum reserves in Alaska and California friends. And where there is an effective Addison has been a discovery of large volumes of oil and they have been purposely left in the ground interesting ly the congress-ruled a few years ago that the elk Hills petroleum reserves. I believe that are in California are now open to production to some extent and they decided we don't need those naval reserves in the magnitude we have before that. I think that these things are a scale of economics and and certainly there are wells to I know that may be in areas that you would you think are producing areas. We don't have the technology to get the oil out of the ground. And the thing is if there's a lot of oil in the ground and you can take out a little bit. You might not get the rest of it. So you might have to wait for a while until you can develop a method that you can get more out of that kind of loss and we have that problem is going to be taking all these you a lot of some of these Wells there's a lot of oil left down there and it's really more expensive than much more complex to find get it out of the ground. We have other colors with questions will take another one good afternoon, you're on the air with some friends yesterday evening and I became aware of the fact that one of the people sitting at the table had been recently arrested in this trespassing. Is it in adak to Delano substation? I told him that I thought I found it difficult to be sympathetic in that. I felt that the time to become involved in that sort of thing was during the deciding or the routing of the transmission lines through the through the transmission line routing process for by the states. But his argument that he came back with was that he was disturbed by the fact that people weren't involved in the use permit process. And I wonder if you'd have some coming in the need determination and there are we encouraged participation in the need decision. We had advertisements in the papers in the affected area and also made it very easy for public members to participate in the hearing process and held hearings in Alexandria to try to make it easier for them to participate that was one of our first a certificate-of-need decisions and although we did those things. I think that in the future we want to do even more aggressive efforts to get public involvement. So part of the difficulty we find and getting public participation in the need processes that it comes first and it's difficult to get people to stirred up about taking part in a question that looks at what seems to be such a vague question is whether something is needed or not the public interest and excitement and involvement comes much are apparently later when a specific location around has been proposed for facility and the way Minnesota statutes before dealing with this the need to determine first before you get into the siding question. So I think we want to do everything we can at the energy agency to get public involvement in the need area. But I think we have a difficult job really getting the kind of public participation. We would like. Mr. Murphy. This is a very peculiar situation in and maybe in some ways a one-time kind of thing. We're going to see more opposition and more protests and we're seeing it against the oil line in southern Minnesota as we have against the power line and Northwestern Minnesota. If we go back to some years ago was it when the the the proponents of that part of that electric lion were deciding to build a power plant in North Dakota that they made a decision based upon a range of economic factors and felt that overall for them and operating costs and end everything in for their Cooperative members and their customers. Is it worth that they plant in North Dakota would be the best option for them. So they said about to do that and I started building a power plant and a little bit earlier than they started building a power line and that makes it a bit of a unique situation. I don't I think that if we tried to build a power plant in northern Minnesota to bring energy down to the end of the proximity of the Twin Cities area friends and we will still be faced with a wide range of resistance on need writing routing citing all of these things, but this one is a bit unique and It is never clear now that we're not we're not experts. Nobody is really a is perfect in in identifying need. What we have to do is it isn't need as a function as a function of time and money in many ways to is we have to decide that. This is our best option at this point in time and we have to proceed on it because at some point in time in the future, we believe we are going to have to have additional sources of energy and that's a very difficult to persuade anybody about especially if it's in their backyard and is mr. Mohan pointed out. It is also difficult to interest and persuade people to participate in the process that has been established and even when participation takes place the results are not always satisfactory to everyone's wishes. We have our lines filled with listeners. Your popularity is outdistancing are time limits on this. Midday programming all I can say to our listeners have been so patient to stick with us, and we will be unable to get to his thank you for your fine questions and thank you for staying with us. It can only mean that they will have to incur Mr. Murphy to return at some later date to take more of these questions as we find a listener's frequently have better questions than we can think of them on the NPR staff members wear 2 minutes before 1 will take one more call if there is a short question and if you don't mind can limit your response is considerably so go ahead. We'll take the next, you're on the air turning music at tables as an alternative energy source, I'd like you to explain briefly how Cattails would be used and comment on the results of any research Cattails are unattractive energy resource because they grow very rapidly. They're almost a natural a perfect solar collector of their weight in one acre is about 45 tonnes compared with 15 Tons for corn which is also a fast-growing crop much of the energy potential and Cattails is in the root. It's a very starchy root than can be converted into Methanol which would be a substitute for gasoline through a fairly simple laboratory process. The difficulty is in figuring out how you would agriculturally Farm Cattails the environmental impacts of the developing Cattail production, but that's a clear potential that in my view has a great deal of Promise as a future energy resource anything to add an excited about that and a lot of other things that have to do with biomass in some of these things because they not only represent the indeed they represent future energy sources, but they really represents of some very interesting future economic opportunities for people in Minnesota to in terms of raising The Cattails and perhaps using the operations that would distilled this jobs and income in business for sure. We have weather information gentleman, but first my thanks to both of you John milhoan director of the Minnesota Energy agency Michael Murphy project leader for the Upper Midwest Council based in Minneapolis.