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GARY EICHTEN: And good evening once again. Welcome to a special half-hour supplement to All Things Considered. Tonight, we're going to have a conversation with Joseph Alexander. Joe Alexander will be the new acting commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, certainly one of the toughest and most powerful jobs in state government.

He was selected last week by Governor Perpich to fill the position when the current DNR commissioner, William Nye, resigned. Mr. Alexander has been with the Department for over 20 years now, and I think it would be fair to say that his selection has met with a good deal of favorable reaction, both from the staff at the DNR and from those groups which have been frequent critics of the Department. And that acceptance in itself is no mean accomplishment given the controversy that traditionally surrounds the Department.

Anyway, Joe Alexander is here tonight to talk about his plans for the Department. And also this evening, reporters Greg Barron and John Murley are on hand. They regularly cover the DNR. And in a little while, we'll be taking some questions from those of you who are listening as well. But to begin, Mr. Alexander, first of all, congratulations. And when do you actually take over? When do you start work?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Well, thank you for inviting me. I don't have an exact date for taking over. Commissioner Nye resigned effective no later than June the 30th. He's in the office now, cleaning up some of the loose ends. I'm going to take a short trip starting Friday. And when I get back, we'll get more serious about the actual day of takeover.

GREG BARRON: Mr. Alexander, one of the first things I want to ask you has to do with something that Gary alluded to for some time for years, perhaps from the inception of the DNR. It's been plagued with a series of problems really going to its public image. Somehow, everything the DNR does seems to result in some measure of controversy. I wonder if you can tell us what you believe accounts for that and what you can do to work toward change for better public acceptance?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Well, I believe some of the controversy that we have gotten into, especially in the last few years, has been simply by the terrific increase in the price of land. It's been an unprecedented increase. As a land management agency and as a regulatory agency, we regulate more and more. And with each regulation that we put in, we have a new group of dissidents and people who don't like that regulation, even though some people had asked for a particular regulation.

This has occurred over a period of years, and we're now in a position of regulating a tremendous number of people in the state of Minnesota, some two million fishermen, 300,000 snowmobilers, 350,000 small game hunters. And I could go on and on with the number of people, State Park users, skiers, cross-country skiers, and so forth. So we are regulating and touching an awful lot of people.

GREG BARRON: It seems to me that a part of the problem as well has to do with what appears to me to be a dual role that the DNR has. That on the one hand, the DNR is there to protect our natural resources and on the other hand, it's there to promote their use. Sometimes, these two roles come into conflict. I wonder which way you lean.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: I lean more toward multiple use of our resources than I do a complete protectionist attitude toward some of the resources. And I'd like to explain a little bit. When I talk about multiple use, I'm not talking about destruction of any natural resources. I believe our goal and our charge in natural resources is the enhancement of the resource that we are protecting. And I do not see that role as one of complete protection in all cases. There are some areas that do need extreme protection. There are some of the crust of our land that's very fragile and must be taken care of.

But by and large, the natural resource the state of Minnesota, with the exception of the non-renewable resources can be managed properly and used by a number of people and can be used to a great advantage to both the resource and the people.

GREG BARRON: That really takes us to the question of the BWCA. Clearly, the DNR does not have a lot to do with the actual operation of the Boundary Waters Canoe area per se, yet what the Commissioner of the Department has to say on the subject is heard and listened to by all, and we experience a great deal of reaction to such comments. You've indicated you prefer multiple use. I wonder if you can tell us just how far that preference goes, perhaps in terms of the current bills before Congress.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: The bill that I gleaned closest toward is the Oberstar Bill, which affords a great deal of complete protection in the BWCA, which I think is proper. But it also allows for some motorized use of some of the peripheral lakes and some snowmobile routes in the wintertime, neither of which I believe will bother the sanctity of the inner part of the BWCA. We have some negotiating that we would like to do, but the concept of the Oberstar Bill seems to fit closer to my idea than any of the rest.

GARY EICHTEN: John?

JOHN MURLEY: Joe, you've done some traveling today, I believe probably the most traveling you've done since your appointment. Where did you go? What have you found out now that you'll be heading the Department soon?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: I started this morning. I went to visit all of our regions, and I took commercial airline to Bemidji and met with our regional people, plus a couple of people from the press and radio in Bemidji. And from there, I went over to Cass Lake and met with the tribal leaders of the Chippewa Tribe. They were meeting in Cass Lake.

These people have been good supporters of mine, and they have been supportive of DNR policies. And I would like to keep a good working relationship with them. I went back to Bemidji and took our own DNR airplane over to Grand Rapids and did the same thing there. I met with as many people as I could in Grand Rapids. Got back an hour or so ago and came on over here.

JOHN MURLEY: For more than half of the 20, 21 years that you have been in Minnesota DNR, you were a game warden. Was it primarily game warden for 14 years, or were there several positions in that time period up north?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Well, we started out as game wardens, and then by a legislative act, we became conservation officers. And my nine years in Bigfork were as a field game warden. And I became a regional supervisor in Mankato, and I was appointed assistant commissioner for administration in the Department from the supervisory post in Mankato. It was generally field supervisory work and conservation officer work, yes, for 14 years.

JOHN MURLEY: Did some of the problems that you and your colleagues out in the field confront with the current DNR commissioner then, do you find that you still have some of the same problems in the Department?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: I didn't quite follow that.

JOHN MURLEY: When you were out in the field, did you find that some of the problems you had with whomever may have been DNR commissioner then, people may initially be saying they have some of the same problems today, that not that much may have changed over the last couple of decades?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Well, I believe that the relationship of the field to the commissioner has changed drastically in the last 20 years. When I became a game warden, first became a game warden, George Selke was the Commissioner of Natural Resources and a very fine commissioner in my estimation, but a man that you did not approach unless you went through strict channels. About as far as we ever got at the time and as far as we ever needed to get was the Director of Game and Fish, who we were under at that time. Very seldom did we ever have field contact with the commissioner, which has changed a great deal.

GREG BARRON: Commissioner, or perhaps it's a little too early, Acting Commissioner, let me ask you this. One of the criticisms that Commissioner Nye was faced with in some cases by staff at the DNR was that he was too much of an administrator. He was known as an administrator. And it said to have caused a number of morale problems at the DNR. This is contrasted with what is generally accepted as a different kind of management style posed by Commissioner Herbst before Nye. Commissioner Herbst used to make a point of indicating that his office was open to all staff, distinctly different kind of administrative style. How would you characterize your style?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Well, I believe it's going to contrast greatly with both of the styles that you've described. Commissioner Nye was not the outgoing type that you have described there. A very personable gentleman on a one to one situation, a very dedicated person to the cause of natural resources. And I just don't think he had time to get his ideas across. But I expect my office to be as wide open as it can possibly be and keep the job going. There is a limit to just how much you can do and how much you can get out and be open and still keep the job open.

I expect to appoint a very strong deputy and work as a co-administrator with that deputy, so that both of us can be freed up at times and be able to meet with the public. I expect our meetings to be as open as we can possibly make them. I hope that the media will feel free to ask to come to any meetings where we aren't making personnel type decisions or something that's covered under the Privacy Act.

But if it's something that we're doing and just discussing that's not a secret, I'd like to have them there. I'd like for people to know what we're doing and find out what our problems are and maybe find out that we don't have as many alternatives to choose from as they think we do. And maybe they can be involved in that decision making process.

GREG BARRON: One of the problems noted by a number of staff members at the DNR had to do with the Commissioner Nye's efforts to reorganize the Department. Many of our listeners will recall stories in which we pointed out that Commissioner Nye was attempting to reorganize on a functional basis. This was his word. In some cases, it tended to split up units. One in particular comes to mind is the Wild and Scenic Rivers Program, where a number of the people were shunted off into a new planning department. This created problems. What kind of reorganization, if any, will you attempt?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: There will be some organizational changes. And I've shied away from that question considerably since the first time I was asked for a number of reasons. I don't want a lot of people shook up in the Department. They might have to do some moving around or something like that. The structure of planning that Commissioner Nye proposed is a sound structure, the two-bureau concept with an assistant commissioner, as required by law, heading it.

Although I do believe that we may have moved too many people into the planning function and completely stripped the disciplines. So as a result of that, I've asked that any move, any physical move of the planning section to the Space Center be held up until we can take a look at the exact number of people that we would like to move into that. I believe we can take a better look now at the number of people that should go into planning, directly into planning. We need the planning function, but I think we need some of it from the discipline toward the organized section of planning or the bureau of planning and not so much of it right into planning.

GARY EICHTEN: You're listening to a special supplement to All Things Considered. We're speaking this evening with Joseph Alexander, who's been appointed the new acting commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. John Murley and Greg Barron in the studios.

And if you would like to talk with Mr. Alexander, have a question for him, we ask that you give us a call. If you live in the Twin City area, the number that you can call with your question is 2211550. That's 2211550 in the Twin City area. If you live outside the Twin Cities, anywhere in Minnesota, you can call us toll-free if you'd like. The number is 1-800-652-9700. We ask that if you do call in with a question, you keep the question brief. We'd like to take just as many as we can.

JOHN MURLEY: Have you learned anything else since the week that the governor was going through that seven-day process of trying to decide between yourself and Senator Jerry Willett, especially since there were several indications, as you may have noticed, that at least part of that week, the governor was leaning toward Willett. Apparently, Willett himself told a couple of lawmakers that he was offered the job. The announcement did not come that weekend. You were named. Have you been able to fill in any of those pieces when you were not in any contact with the governor's office at all that week?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Tell you the truth, John, I haven't even tried. I considered Jerry an excellent candidate for the job of Commissioner of Natural Resources. I made up my mind some time ago that the Governor knew my qualifications. He had a good copy of my position on various issues in the Department. And I just let it alone and let him decide. He had to he had to use the best information that he had possible.

And I've talked to Jerry Willett. There's no problem between us at all. We both agreed that we will work very closely together. So I didn't even try to fill any of the pieces. I got the job, and I guess that was the net result that I was looking for. So that was good enough.

JOHN MURLEY: What type of relationship do you plan to have with the Governor, or have you covered that yet?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: I believe it's going to be a very good working relationship. I'm going to work directly with Terry Montgomery, his aide, on formulating department policies up until the time that it's turned over to me fully. I'll run everything by them, discuss it with them, minimize the number of problems and disagreements that there might be, work out, any problem that I can with them. They're willing to talk, and they want a good working Department of Natural Resources just the same as I do. And this is the way I think we get it.

JOHN MURLEY: Doesn't that suggest that you'll be perhaps a little less independent as commissioners go than commissioners have been in the past, vis a vis the problem that the Governor has enunciated regarding public image of the DNR?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: No, I don't believe so. I think the people-- actually, the people that know me are fearing just the opposite, and I'm going to get myself in a pile of trouble. But that remains to be seen. I don't intend to get in a great deal of trouble on that. But I do plan to discuss any decisions that I have with appropriate staff. I don't want to make some unilateral decision that would embarrass a bunch of people if there's some other way of doing it. But I don't believe that I'm going to have any direct orders to do a particular task from the Governor's Office without some discussion on it and some agreement on.

GREG BARRON: You don't see yourself as a governor's man.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: No. I see him as my boss. We're both in the executive branch of government, and I see the governor as the boss. And if we can't agree, he is the boss. So that would be a decision I'd have to make at that time. There will be things that we don't see eye to eye on. I would expect to discuss those.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's take a question from one of our listeners. We have a person on the line. Your question for Mr. Alexander, please? Hello.

GREG BARRON: While we're waiting, let me ask you, Joe. Do you think that or do you have any reason why Commissioner Nye has not announced exactly when he will resign since you've been named acting commissioner almost a week ago and it is not at all unusual? In fact, it's usually tradition that the person, after an appointee is named to fill his place, will step down relatively quickly.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: I can't answer why he just didn't leave immediately. No. I think he has a few loose ends that he would like to tie up before he moves out. But as a direct answer, I'm just afraid I can't answer it. I'm afraid Commissioner Nye would have to answer that.

GARY EICHTEN: We tried the phone call again. I think we have a question now from one of our callers. If you're out there with a call, a question, give us a call in the Twin Cities at 2211550. Outside the Metropolitan area, the number is 1-800-652-9700. And we do have someone on the line right now. What is your question for Mr. Alexander? Good evening.

CALLER: I've got some question and actually about three parts, I guess. Prior to Commissioner Nye assuming the commissioner role in Natural Resources, how many unclassified positions did the Department have?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: We have the same now as we had then. We have about 82 unclassified positions in the Department that varies depending on what some of our funding is, but it runs about 80 to 82 unclassified positions. The type that you're talking about, this includes almost anything that I would have the power to point to.

CALLER: So these are really patronage jobs?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: No, not necessarily patronage jobs. These are jobs that are set up through special funding. Some terms that we use in state government are some budgetary authorized positions. You have a job to do, and you can identify the money. There's a provision made that you can appoint above complement for those positions on an acting basis and then later on turn them into complement positions.

LCMR-funded positions that are for a specific project and a specific length of time are unclassified positions. The LCMR is a Legislative Commission on Minnesota Resources. The penny of tax on cigarettes, in other words, that is used for resource work.

CALLER: Under Rule 10.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Well, these could be under Rule 10, yes.

GARY EICHTEN: Do you have a specific question, sir?

CALLER: Yeah. Well, my concern is the number of political appointees in state government, whether they be called unclassified or especially funded or what. I think the last legislative session, someone proposed that they create perhaps another 500 of these by declassifying positions. And I guess our concern is that this is getting a little bit out of hand with state government in Minnesota.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Thank you very much. We have another caller. Hello. You're on the air.

CALLER: Hello. I'm curious about us people who live here in the Metropolitan area who are perhaps majority taxpayers for the state of Minnesota, who have to put up with this business of what almost seems discrimination against we tourists who like to run around in Northern Minnesota and enjoy the wilderness and so forth. Would you please respond to that?

GARY EICHTEN: If you could give me an example of the discrimination you're talking about.

CALLER: For example, the hostility that the fishermen in the Smelt Run have to put up with.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Well, I personally, I worked up there for an awfully long time, and I worked in a small town where great amount of the tourist or the dollars that came into that town were tourist dollars. And I have not seen any of the type of thing that you're talking about, the hostility toward tourists coming in, other than some of the BWCA controversy and things like this that are happening. Generally, the business people and the townspeople up there realize that the tourist dollar is a great amount of their income, and I really can't answer you on that. I just haven't seen it.

CALLER: Well, I guess my concern is that, you know, and perhaps this is something that has to be worked out, that we down here in the city have to enjoy and appreciate all that beautiful, untouched wilderness. And I for one resent the fact that we are not allowed to do so or in the majority.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, sir, thank you very much. And if you have a question for Mr. Alexander, we ask that you keep it brief. 2211550 in the Twin Cities. And for those of you outside the Metropolitan area, we'd like to hear from you as well. You can call us toll free at 1-800-652-9700. And we have another caller on the line. You're on the air with your question. Good evening.

CALLER: Good evening. I have a couple of questions for Mr. Alexander. I'm presently a DNR employee. And I have been particularly stunned through the last three commissioners that we've had about the mismanagement in middle level and upper level positions. And also the cost overruns that are evident in DNR. And I don't know if just state government. I've come from private enterprise in the system, and if the taxpayers knew what's going on, I'm sure they would be stunned also. I was wondering if Joe was going to do anything about that or he had any comments on that.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Yes. Joe does plan on doing something about it. There will be a reduction at the top, I agree that our department has become rather top heavy. There are some proposed positions in top level management in DNR that will not be filled. There are some positions at top level now that may be abolished. So I don't know what the net result will be, but change there will be, yes.

CALLER: Good. Thank you.

GARY EICHTEN: Thank you very much.

JOHN MURLEY: Joe, you have a new deputy, I believe?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: I have a new deputy that I've asked to join me. And I believe he is-- I'm almost positive he is consented yes to be my deputy. He's Steve Thorne. He's one of our top attorneys with the Attorney General's Department attached to the Department, has a long history and a long history of experience in Natural Resources work.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, let's take another caller. I'm not sure if this person is from outside the Metropolitan area or not. Good evening. You're on the air.

CALLER: Yes. I've noticed that there's a potential conflict within the Department of Natural Resources between divisions which grant mineral, timber, and other leases and other divisions which serve to protect the wildlife and fish and just the general environment. And I was wondering how Mr. Alexander proposes to deal with this potential conflict.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Well, I hope to deal within the Department much in the same manner as I plan on dealing with the public outside the Department. I plan on having those people together with their mutual problems laid out on the table. I think there's always solutions to them. And I know exactly what you're talking about in the forestry interest, of course, is to see if we can get the allowable cut close to the demand for the wood that we have.

And this may or may not be in conflict with game management processes or plans. In many cases, it is. They run very close, paralleled disciplines. And I think that the secret to this is getting together and talking about it, working out the plans that we have within the Department. I think we've got to do a lot of talking and a lot of across the table arguing. I think it can be done.

GREG BARRON: Joe, there's another example of this conflict, a conflict that I suggested earlier. In the protection of wetlands, DNR traditionally has attempted to protect state wetland areas for the propagation of waterfowl. On the other hand, farmers throughout the state often feel a real need to drain the wetlands, to put that land into protection, into production. It seems to me that sometimes these conflicts can't be worked out by talking about them, and I'm not sure that I'm clear yet on just which way you're going. Earlier, you suggested that you felt multiple use was important. But still, in an example like this, there is no middle ground.

In the area of wetlands, we only have so much water. That's it. And the area of wetlands we have now, I think we have demonstrated in the state that wetland areas can be multiple use areas. We have fringe areas on lakes that go into wetlands that are prime examples of multiple use. We have sport of fishing, hunting, trapping and also some fringe areas of farming and wetland management areas that are fringe crops that we sharecrop on.

And I believe that this is a good example of multiple use. But when you start talking about a particular wetland, that versus draining it for crop lands, no, this would take a hard decision on whether or not that should be drained or not. When it's gone, it's gone. And there's no way that we're going to restore that that I can see if it's turned into crop land. This is where land values have come in. That land a few years ago was worth $20, $25 an acre. And if it's drained, it's worth a thousand now on some areas. So we're actually talking a lot of money.

GARY EICHTEN: Hello. You're on the air.

CALLER: I'm calling from Alexandria, and I have a question in regard to winter recreation and multiple use. How do you intend to resolve the incompatibility between snowmobiles and cross-country skiing.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: I just don't believe that cross-country skiers and snowmobiles can use the same trails with any degree of success. There are going to have to be separate facilities for those. You didn't identify which one you associated with. Maybe both. It's not unusual for a cross-country skier to have a snowmobile.

CALLER: Cross-country skiing, but I work closely with the--

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Yeah. So it isn't unusual for that to happen. But I don't believe that the two trails are compatible, and to any degree, you can't ski much on snowmobile trails, especially if you've got a lot of traffic. It's pretty inevitable that something's going to happen. But there must be some recreational opportunities for the cross-country skiers. This is one of the projects that our department is involved with. And we have a number of miles of cross-country ski trails now, and I'm sure those are going to be increased. But to answer your question, there's no way that they're going to be compatible on the same trail.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. We have only about three more minutes or so. We'd like to get as many questions in as possible. Good evening. You're on the air.

CALLER: Yes. I wondered if Mr. Alexander thought that the policy of Minnesota in dealing with the Indian tribes and their hunting and fishing rights would basically continue under his administration and that there would be receptivity to negotiated settlements of the issues.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: We cannot negotiate settlements with White Earth and any other reservation short of the lawsuit. We are limited by state law on just what we can do in the Indian reservations. There are some administrative procedures that we can follow that would clarify certain areas of disagreement. But the White Earth case is in court. There's some cases in Grand Portage that have hit court. Malaxa's asked for some clarification of some laws.

But administratively, we're working very close with them, and the Leach Lake agreement is set by law, and we must administer that by law. We're getting along very well with it. In fact, I met up there today with those people, and I think we're both very happy with that agreement. The way it's worked out, it was predicted it wouldn't work this long, and we've done pretty well with it.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Thank you very much. I guess time for a couple more calls. Good evening. You're on the air. As is the dial tone. All quiet. We've got time for a couple more questions, gentlemen. John Murley?

JOHN MURLEY: Joe, I wanted to ask you a little bit about your current situation. As we mentioned earlier, you're going to be in a holding pattern for maybe the next few days, few weeks, conceivably until the end of June. You and the current commissioner are separated by a very thin wall if you're in your same office. Are you going to be taking time off, or is there a problem right now as far as touring the state, talking on radio shows when you still have a commissioner in there? Have you discussed anything since you were named?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: We haven't discussed very much about the job. The commissioners agreed with me and through the governor's office that no appointments will be made by him, no major decisions other than those that are discussed with me. I am going to get out for a few days. I don't think the situation could work very long, but the two of us there, one designate and one the commissioner. People are asking for a decision by me that I cannot make. I refuse to make them. And I refuse to reveal any of my plans on changes in the Department. I can't do that very long. So we'll have to work on a closing date.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Time for one more quick call or quick question, rather from our callers. Good evening. You're on the air.

CALLER: Hello. The DNR administers the Minnesota Snowmobile Trail Assistance Program. And according to an inane formula, that came to $2.5 million in the last year I believe. That's $2.5 million spent on having bulldozers cross farmers' fields and pastures and traffic of 300 or 400 machines on a weekend. There are now 7,000 miles of trails, that's snowmobile trails in the state already. My question is, when is this going to stop?

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: I believe now that the acquisition of snowmobiles as such has slowed down a great deal. The thing we're interested in most right now is the designated trails that we have on the books of getting those ready for use. There's a taconite trail in Northern Minnesota and several trails that are identified. But I believe our number one priority in snowmobile trails now is to get the plans out and finish the trails that we have proposed, and I think that we have to put an end date on the number of miles.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Thank you very much. We've been talking with Joseph Alexander, appointed last week as the new acting commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. We're sorry if you called us and we didn't get to this evening. Time limitations prevent us from taking any more questions. It's been a pleasure having you here, Mr. Alexander.

JOSEPH ALEXANDER: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

GARY EICHTEN: Good luck in your new job. For Greg Barron, John Murley, this is Gary Eichten inviting you to stay tuned. Now mixed media is coming up next on these listener supported stations.