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KORVA COLEMAN: From NPR News in Washington, I'm Korva Coleman. The top US military commander in Iraq says he likely won't call for another troop surge in Iraq. General David Petraeus says this will strain the US Army. Rather, he's looking to draw down the number of troops this year who are stationed there.

DAVID PETRAEUS: We have a number of months and a number of substantial actions to take before then, but we are already identifying areas that we think are likely candidates for that.

KORVA COLEMAN: Congressional Democrats say there are too many troops in Iraq to deal with the real threat to the United States, Al-Qaeda. A senior US intelligence official tells NPR, a senior Al-Qaeda leader has died of natural causes. The Al-Qaeda official who used the name Abu Ubaidah al-Masri is believed to have planned the 2005 train bombings in London and a plot to blow up jets over the Atlantic Ocean.

Today is the fifth anniversary of the fall of Baghdad to US troops. No vehicles are allowed in the Iraqi capital. And a curfew has been imposed. Fighting continues in Baghdad's neighborhoods, Sadr City. NPR'S Lourdes Garcia-Navarro reports from Baghdad.

LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO: It's been an inauspicious anniversary so far. Baghdad's been locked down. The streets are empty and tense. And also today, the US military announced the deaths of two more US soldiers. It says one soldier was killed by a roadside bomb in Baghdad yesterday. Another died of non-combat-related injuries. Since Sunday, 13 US soldiers have died, some of them killed in the fighting in Baghdad's Shiite slum of Sadr City, where the militia loyal to cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is battling US and Iraqi forces.

Over 50 Iraqis have also been killed and hundreds more wounded, according to hospitals in Sadr City. There's a lack of food, electricity, and water in that district, home to 2 and 1/2 million people. Iraq's human rights ministry is warning of a humanitarian crisis if the fighting does not end soon. Lourdes Garcia-Navarro, NPR News, Baghdad.

KORVA COLEMAN: Thousands of people are expected to turn out for the Olympic torch today in San Francisco. Police are preparing. It's the flame's only North American stop on the way to the Beijing Summer Games. From member station KQED in San Francisco, Rachael Myrow reports.

LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO: Thousands rallied last night near San Francisco City Hall to hear Archbishop Desmond Tutu and actor Richard Gere rail against China's human rights record and call for a boycott of the games. Given the demonstrations that marked the Torch's travel through London and Paris, San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom says there will be hundreds of police officers on hand today.

GAVIN NEWSOME: I want people to focus and celebrate on the spirit that is the Olympic and the Olympic movement, and that's the spirit of unity, not division.

LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO: San Francisco is getting back up from other Bay Area police departments, the California Highway Patrol, and the FBI. Later this week, the International Olympic Committee will decide whether to continue carrying the torch across the globe or just send it directly to China. For NPR News, I'm Rachael Myrow in San Francisco.

KORVA COLEMAN: On wall street, the Dow Jones Industrials are down 98 points there at 12,477. This is NPR.

ANNOUNCER: Support for news comes from sitforless.com, selling all colors of the Herman Miller Aeron chair online, including the new color, true black. sitforless.com.

STEVEN JOHN: From Minnesota Public Radio News, I'm Steven John. A state investigation into the swimming pool accident that led to the death of a six-year-old Edina girl shows a drain cover wasn't securely attached and improper fasteners had been used.

Abigail Taylor was playing in the kiddie pool at the Minneapolis golf club in Saint Louis Park last June. When she sat on the open drain, its powerful suction ripped out part of her intestinal tract. The girl died last month. The health department investigation also found other issues with the pool's circulation system. The Taylor family is suing the golf club and the pool equipment manufacturer.

Former Minnesota Vikings, great Carl Eller was booked into jail early today on suspicion of drunken driving, fleeing police, and assaulting an officer. A police report says Eller's vehicle was pulled over in North Minneapolis, and that he allegedly punched at least one officer.

The Fish and Wildlife Service says the Mississippi floodplain still needs a lot of cleanup after last August's flash floods. Minnesota Public Radio's Sea Stachura reports.

SEA STACHURA: Garvin Brook near Minnesota city, was particularly hard hit in the floods. The trout stream swelled to 100 feet wide, after the US Manager, Mary Stefanski, says she's asking volunteers to help clean up that area on Saturday, April 26.

MARY STEFANSKI: We're asking people to bring their own gloves. We will supply garbage bags and shovels and things like that they might need. And then wear appropriate footwear, which should be something that's closed toed, whether that's hiking boots, tennis shoes.

SEA STACHURA: Stefanski says car parts, toys, lawnmowers, and more were dumped on the refuge as a result of the flood. The volunteer project runs from 10:00 AM until 2:00 PM. Sea Stachura, Minnesota Public Radio News, Rochester.

STEVEN JOHN: Mainly partly cloudy skies for Minnesota today. Highs in the mid 40s to mid 50s. It's currently 37 in the Twin Cities. This is Minnesota Public Radio News.

GARY EICHTEN: All right, thanks, Steven. 12:06.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

And good afternoon. Welcome back to Midday on Minnesota Public Radio News. I'm Gary Eichten.

This hour, we're featuring conversations with five women whose views on social justice issues spring from their religious beliefs. Four of the women are sisters, literally and figuratively. The McDonald sisters are biological sisters who are also Catholic nuns. Kate, Bridget, Rita, and Jane McDonald are self-described peaceniks.

Also this hour, we're going to feature a conversation with the Reverend Peg Chemberlin, Minnesota clergy woman who currently heads the Minnesota Council of Churches, is also President-elect of the National Council of Churches. All five women sat down for conversations with Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Olson as part of our Voices of Minnesota Interview series.

DAN OLSON: The McDonald sisters have spent a lot of years working with youth as educators, counselors, and in other ways. And young people seem drawn to them. When the McDonald sisters visited the Southside Family School in Minneapolis not too long ago, the students decided to make a video about them.

CHILD: We know four sisters who are also Catholic nuns.

DAN OLSON: The student production includes interviews with the sisters. And it follows them to the weekly Wednesday morning protests in Edina, at weapons manufacturer, Alliant Techsystems headquarters.

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

Then later on most Wednesdays, the sisters make their way to the bridge protest. That's the weekly gathering of people who stand on the Marshall Avenue Lake Street Bridge over the Mississippi River between Minneapolis and Saint Paul, to protest the war in Iraq.

The McDonald sisters views promoting peace and opposing war have evolved over the decades. They grew up in a family where their father and other male relatives were military veterans who fought in wars. And the sisters came of age during World War II, widely supported by public opinion.

The McDonald sisters are gregarious and outgoing. And I learned during the interview with them at a home in Minneapolis, they're good at singing too.

MCDONALD SISTERS: (SINGING) Bless us with truth, the gift of hearing, a simple song from within.

DAN OLSON: The McDonald sisters are members of the Catholic order of Sisters of Saint Joseph of Carondelet. They grew up in a big Irish Catholic family on an old fashioned Minnesota farm with pigs, chickens, cows, and field crops. Near Watertown, West of the Twin cities. Here's Bridget McDonald. Rural Watertown, Minnesota. Is that so? Rural--

BRIDGET MCDONALD: Hollywood Township.

DAN OLSON: Hollywood township.

BRIDGET MCDONALD: Work from Hollywood.

DAN OLSON: From Hollywood. And you played war?

BRIDGET MCDONALD: When we were kids, we played war in the pigpen. We called it Okinawa in the pigpen because the pigs would make those nice holes in the mud. And when they were dry, we would lay in there. That was where the foxholes, even though they were pig holes. And we had little sticks and guns. And we would play war and bang, you're dead. No, I got you first. No, you're dead. No, you're dead.

So we argued a lot, I think, when we were kids. We played up in the haymow. We'd-- we were Japs and things like that. We use those terms and-- up in the play mount. So the haymow, yeah. Other people did other things in the haymow, but we played war in the haymow.

So it wasn't like we were pushed into being peaceniks as children. We had plenty of fights and a lot of arguments. I don't think we hit-- got violent like that, but we did argue a lot. And maybe that's what made us opinionated, I don't know, because I think everybody in the family is opinionated.

DAN OLSON: The McDonald sisters don't laugh away their childhood war games. When I suggest it was just kid stuff, things that all youngsters do, the sisters come back with the view, things done in childhood influence later adult behavior.

KATE MCDONALD: I'm hoping-- I'm Kate. And I'm hoping that our grand nieces and nephews haven't heard that last little segment about what we did as kids, because I would hate to think that they are playing Iraqi in the pigpen or any-- on the ball field or anything.

DAN OLSON: Well, before you're too hard on yourselves or your-- I mean, that's a kid thing, is it not? We all did it, did we not?

KATE MCDONALD: I know it. I know it.

DAN OLSON: And the good thing is we grew up and get beyond that, many of us, is that not so?

KATE MCDONALD: I would hope so.

JANE MCDONALD: Well, I'm Jane. I respond to that because we played Okinawan, the pig bin, cowboy and Indians. And my claim is that your children-- there's a line in the song of Cat Stevens, watch your children play. Children will play out what the adult world is doing. And the tragedy now, Kate, like we have our conversation, the war has come home to roost. The games are less-- are much more intensely, tragically dangerous than our simple little things.

People say, well, that didn't do you any harm. You played Okinawa in the pigpen and cowboy and Indians. It's different now. And that's a very concerning thing. Children will. Let the adult world. And I hope they're not playing, but it's come home to roost. We have the violence and weapons on our street. And these young kids are floundering and looking for belonging and for community. And so we're paying a big price. You reap what you sow.

And of course, we had our struggles and all of that. But it's very concerning that we've lost touch. And that's what I meant by a spiritual bankruptcy, that we owe something new to this generation. But unless on a national scale, we don't start giving them something to turn around from and toward, we have a serious generation ahead of us because of that.

RITA MCDONALD: Well, this is Rita. I was just thinking, the video games, it's just shoot, and kill, and target, and what a good shot you are. And when you watch television, there's so much going back to the history of war. So how could the children figure out peace? How could they figure out negotiation and discussing?

It's-- so it is-- that part is frightening for me and very concerning that the young don't have a lot to go on, although what's hopeful is when we-- the young people that associate with us and that are at the bridge and at-- they are really into the environmental damage that's being done.

So somehow, that certainly will go with peace. And that's very hopeful to hear a lot of them getting educated in the environmental destruction that's happening, which war is one of the prime disruptors. So that's-- it's a mixed bag right now for me, looking at the youth.

KATE MCDONALD: Dan, you asked about where our hope is. I-- a few years ago, I volunteered at the Seward Montessori School. And I was so impressed with the teachers, the way they watched, how peace was being taught and how the children were acting toward one another. I really have to say that was a very, very good thing for me to hear and see, young teachers that were young enough to be my children, teaching the children like that.

And they would call each other-- the children would even call each other on violent words and violent behavior, certainly. So that's happening, I think, in more than one school. But I have to admire this staff that I was working with.

DAN OLSON: This is Voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio and a conversation with the four McDonald sisters, biological sisters who are also Catholic nuns. Later this hour, we'll talk with the Reverend Peg Chemberlin, a Minnesota clergy woman who is President-elect of the National Council of Churches.

The four McDonald sisters range in age from their 60s to their 80s. They received what they consider a traditional and not very enlightened education as children. An awakening is how some of them describe how their views have changed. Here's more of our conversation.

What was the awakening? Bridget referred to the awakening. Did all four of you have an awakening in terms of your political or views?

JANE MCDONALD: Well, for me, I think when your theology changes and your spirituality changes, your lifestyle changes as well. And so I think when-- for me anyway, when I did enter the convent and we had a lot of Theology and a lot of new spirituality, and so the awakening was gradual. You didn't wake up one day and say, there, I'm awakened. So I think it's a gradual changing of your spirituality that brings about a change in your outer activity.

What were your-- Kate.

KATE MCDONALD: I'm Kate. And I always go back to-- I was about 24 years old when I heard Mulford Q. Sibley, the head of the Political Science Department at the University of Minnesota. And he was a Quaker. And I never heard of Quakers before that. I mean, 24 years old, and I didn't know there was a religion called Quakers. And he was so-- his message was so different from a Christian message that I had heard. Sorry to say, but as Christians, we just marched off to war just as if it was part of life. It's OK to kill. But boy, his message was totally opposite.

DAN OLSON: This would have been the mid to late '50s?

KATE MCDONALD: Yes. Yes.

DAN OLSON: And he was a university professor. Repeatedly, they tried-- people tried to have him fired. And he was called red.

JANE MCDONALD: Pinko.

DAN OLSON: Pinko.

JANE MCDONALD: Pinko. And when I got--

DAN OLSON: You see any of that?

JANE MCDONALD: --when I got to hear him personally, his message really took. And I have to say, that's when I really felt like I woke up to pay attention. What can I say? What can I do? How can I act?

DAN OLSON: You-all came of age during a time in the United States when people speaking out were frequently called communists, were frequently called a pinko, and staying moderate-- staying rank and file was very highly valued. Is that-- are we different now? Are we in a very different time and place now in this country?

KATE MCDONALD: Another thing, Dan, I worked at Saint Mary's hospital, Cedar Riverside area. And if you remember, there were a lot of people that were draft resisters. And that word got to me right around the hospital. People were doing draft counseling. And I thought, isn't this something? I mean, I had to pay attention to what was going on. It was a big area of draft resistance and draft counseling by serious minded people.

DAN OLSON: Jane. This is Jane.

JANE MCDONALD: When I was more miseducated, I appreciate what schooling and education I received. And as Bridget said, we're blessed with community, profoundly blessed with the beloved community, which is an education, too.

But we were miseducated. I didn't come to grips with what we had done, the genocide we did to the original people and built on the backs of the slaves. Why was that such a severe missing link? It isn't in the history books, the way it needs to be.

So I often will refer to other citizens, but especially the youth. They have an opportunity with this high tech to really get a grip on what the real history is. And that's something that I think is very profoundly important to my soul and the soul of this nation, to remember that we were built on the backs of the slaves and took the land from the Indigenous people. We want the oil from the Iraqi people.

Make connections. Connect the dots. This is a big puzzle in life. And I encourage the young people to keep up their education, not only in the classroom, but beyond it. Get out into the neighborhoods and into your area and your village, and see what's really happening, and pay attention to it.

I would just add, read here, that the labeling and people do not want to be looked upon as unpatriotic communists. There are so many things that people really are afraid of. They want to look-- be accepted. We all need to be accepted. We don't like conflict in that area. So if we don't teach our children to stand up for what they really believe in and recognize as the truth, then it's going to continue, the violence will continue. That's my concern for the young.

DAN OLSON: The McDonald sisters, four biological sisters born and raised on a farm near Watertown, West of Minneapolis. As adults, the four sisters became Catholic nuns. This is Voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan Olson.

The McDonald sisters point out that as members of a Catholic order, they took work assignments from the church. After her religious training, Bridget was a Catholic school first grade teacher for 30 years. When Kate left the novitiate, she went to a Twin Cities Catholic-run hospital, where she worked in admissions.

Jane's first assignment included her first train ride to Grand Forks, where she became a cook for other sisters. She jokes that no one got sick or died. Jane later worked with single mothers and troubled youth.

Rita says her first mission was as a staff person at an orphanage, then food service in convents, then on to social work with chemically dependent mothers. Rita says through all her assignments, she tried to stay out of mischief, and laughs when she says she joined the peace movement and has been in mischief ever since.

The McDonald sisters' relationship to the Catholic Church is deep and personal. Here's more of our conversation.

Are you all, the four of you, personally, in your view and your opinion, in good standing with the church?

BRIDGET MCDONALD: I'm Bridget. I feel, definitely, I am Catholic. I always say, it's-- I'm Irish. I can't get over it. And I'm Catholic. It's in my bones. And I'm proud to be Catholic. And even though I don't always see that the hierarchical structure was the intention of Jesus when he really established church or started community, part of Last Supper. So I'm able to disassociate myself often, personally now, this is me, with the hierarchical structure because I don't feel that that's part of Jesus' gospel message.

And so I'm really will give my life for the gospel message. I'll stand up for the Jesus message and the gospel message, which to me, just the hierarchy-- maybe they have another purpose, but it doesn't interfere with my spiritual life.

DAN OLSON: But I gather, this is what gives the Vatican the heebie-jeebies is this kind of American bent of Catholics in America to select from the table the pieces of Catholicism they like.

BRIDGET MCDONALD: Well, I don't think saying yes to everything that the hierarchy would say and interpret what faith is, and what Jesus' message really is, and how we're to look, and talk, and speak, and say, yes, father, yes, father, yes, father. I don't think that's what Jesus wants from us. Does not want that from me.

I believe we have our own wisdom, the Catholic people. No wonder, they're looking like they're branching out, and choosing, and interpreting, and living their own life as a holy life, spreading the Gospel of love, and care, and responsibility. So that's-- I think the Holy Spirit, for me, is really working within the people. And I think it's hard for the bishop and hierarchies to catch up. But I think they're recognizing that it's not the same and it's not going to be the same, but they're having a hard time letting go of the power and the direction.

So that's a lot that goes on with me. And we're-- I feel very, very adopted by Catholics even that don't agree with me because I think they're respecting that other view more and more. They're willing to listen and talk about it.

JANE MCDONALD: It's-- Jane here. It's a definition of words and language. The church, we are the body of Christ. We are the church. All people are the church. And that's the faith that I and I think, a lot of Catholics stand by and believe in and continue to live and grow. We're living organism, and change is a critical part of that.

And it is-- there's some sadness. And of course, there's an honest just rage at times that the church has some-- it's a human organism that has had tragic, tragic consequences of abuse of power. And that isn't going to go away. And that should not be silenced or covered up as has been proven to be the case tragically.

So I believe if we are willing, I'm a credible part of the church because Catholic and one interpretation is to be universal, be in touch with the universe, the original intention of spirituality and faith. I have faith in the people. And I have faith in Mother Earth. And whatever-- literally, in our history, whatever man put together to try and enhance that, and excluded other people, of course, the women that you're referring to now, when you treat people in your body of people of faith as second class citizens or less than, we are living the consequences of that abuse of power and that attitude.

So the church needs a lot of-- appreciated the-- one of our popes that said, the Vatican, when you open the windows, and let the fresh air in, and grow up, and grow in depth. And that's why I'm excited. I actually try to find some hope and enthusiasm. If we listen and open up the doors and the windows, and our hearts and our minds, I think the church might-- it will look very differently. And I'm very excited about that.

DAN OLSON: If you were to prioritize the issues that you would like to see different with Roman Catholicism, would you place allowing women as priests at the top or would you place other issues in the church at the top?

JANE MCDONALD: This is Jane. I don't personally prioritize the ordination of women because I think that's a part of the problem, not a solution. But I'm respectful that the issue there of people who have put a lot of energy into that is a justice issue that you share the empowerment of priesthood. We are priests by the rite of our baptism. So it's already happened, we just didn't acknowledge it in a more formal kind of way. But so I respect people that are working hard on that. I personally don't feel a lot of energy being poured into perpetuating that particular system as we know it called ordained priesthood.

RITA MCDONALD: I'm Rita. I think it has more to do with giving a message that you aren't quite up to par if you're not ordained with the oil. You're not to be heard. Now, the edict has gone out that we're not even to have homilies by the lay people. We're not-- there are some that are so strict, they'll say, there's nobody up at the altar with me but the ordained cleric.

So my concern now is we're pulling back the power of the laity to be out there, to be a big part of sharing their spirituality, sharing their wisdom. And the Vatican, too, some-- if we really study it, was say, we must empower the laity. They must participate, not be just spectators.

So I think my energy would go to try to loosen that up and get us back to even the direction we were going, which seems to be-- we're being pulled back now. That's my general concern.

JANE MCDONALD: Yes. This is Jane. I think one of the language things there is that we have a spiritual class system when you talk like that, the laity. That-- just the class system across the board in other dimensions. But there's a spiritual class system. And we fell into it and we perpetuate that. And it's not healthy. We need to-- Jesus, whom we choose to follow and keep a deep faith-filled commitment to the gospel and his life and holy death. It has to do with mutuality and equality.

And I really personally believe he was crucified because he was just man. Not that we were such terrible sinners. Of course, we have freedom of choice, and we've sinned, and make our mistakes. And there's that forgiveness. But I really think and believe that Jesus was crucified and put down because he stood up to people who abused power in his time, in his history.

And so we're called to do that on all levels. And the spiritual class system is not healthy. And the so-called official church that we say we belong to, I choose to belong to, but we're going to change it carefully and prayerfully.

DAN OLSON: This is Voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio, and a conversation with the McDonald sisters, Rita, Jane, Bridget, and Kate. I'm Dan Olson. Later this hour, a conversation with the Reverend Peg Chemberlin, director of the Minnesota Council of Churches and President-elect of the National Council of Churches.

The four McDonald sisters are also Catholic nuns in the order of sisters of Saint Joseph of Carondelet. Every Wednesday, the sisters McDonald and about two dozen others demonstrate their opposition to war in front of the corporate headquarters of Munitions Manufacturer Alliant Techsystems in Edina. Also on Wednesday, the McDonalds are often on the Lake Street-Marshall Avenue Bridge over the Mississippi River, between Minneapolis and Saint Paul, showing their opposition to the war in Iraq.

The McDonald sisters miss few opportunities to voice their views about war and peace. They've been arrested several times. As the conversation continued, I asked how they measure the impact of their protests.

RITA MCDONALD: Well, often, we're asked that, what good are you doing? This is Rita speaking. So that is a question that's asked a lot and we certainly ask ourselves. And each one of us has to speak for ourselves of what it does for us and why we're out there individually.

And for me, I don't want to ever picture a situation that they're creating in war and the money that's going for these weapons that there would never be any sign of any resistance. So for me, I need to be a part of saying, not in my name do you spend money that should be on good programs for the poor and for the society that needs that help with good programs. And we're cutting the programs and we're putting this big amount of money into making weapons of mass destruction.

So I need to be out there. And there's many of us with us. And we're saying, not in my name and do I agree with how the money is being spent.

DAN OLSON: And why? Why did you take this route? Why have you engaged in this activity?

RITA MCDONALD: Well, because for me, it's the amount of energy and the great minds that are spent, trying to improve weapons. And our weaponry for the military is really a disgrace in my-- that I believe is a disgrace. So I need to be out there, saying, as I mentioned before, not in my name and the name of the poor that are relying on the help that they need with the resources that we have in this country. And they're being wasted, in my estimation.

JANE MCDONALD: And Jane here. I think a related question would be, what are our priorities? I think we're-- as a nation, we have tragic priorities. And if we really straighten those out and cared about the real issues of, well, obviously, global warming is one of them, the waste and our energy policy, depending on the oil. We know this war is about resources. And oil is one of the big ones.

DAN OLSON: The president says it's about spreading democracy.

JANE MCDONALD: Well, I-- Bridget wants to address. I have a response to it. I think we would have a very different definition these days of democracy then. Because to be democratic, we are a Republic, you would listen to the public and you would listen to the people.

RITA MCDONALD: Rita here. Yes, I couldn't help but think, if you went out with-- I was just thinking of relatives and friends. Go out for lunch. And there's a lot of silence, total silence about the war and about these issues that are very bothersome and threatening. But we talk about our-- the fun we're having with our children, which is a very holy subject, the children. But I think we're very careful because we're saturated with the idea of patriotism, just saturated to the point that if you sound like you are disturbed about our leaders and what they're doing, you could-- you're well classified as non patriotic.

So I think there's a lot of that as the pall over the issues that we're pretty well saturated with already. But anyway, we're asked to go to schools, and high schools, and talk to the young people. I think that's a very good thing to be able to do. And we're always glad to do that.

And then we know the veterans for peace go to these schools. And there's a lot of groups that are really trying to educate the young people. And that's my hope that can happen more and more.

DAN OLSON: The McDonald sisters label themselves peaceniks, but individually and together, they take on lots of issues. They're advocates for young people. They've worked as educators and social workers, among other jobs. However, the war in Iraq is never far from their minds. Like many Americans, they are troubled by the mess there and how to deal with it. Here's more of the conversation.

What would be your recipe for getting out of the war, for ending the war?

BRIDGET MCDONALD: Well, I mean, nobody knows the answer to that. I'm Bridget. And I don't think anybody knows the answer to that. I do admire people like Kucinich and people who have suggestions of how to get out.

And I think, perhaps, the power structure isn't asking the right people. That's the problem I have. They're not listening to the right people. And when they say that they were misinformed, I don't believe they were misinformed. They didn't listen to the people who do know the weapons inspectors.

So when they are wondering how to get out of Iraq, I don't think they're asking the right people advice. they're asking, generals, perhaps. And the military might-- the pentagon, the people who are making money off the war aren't going to suggest how to get out of there.

DAN OLSON: Do the sisters McDonald, Bridget, Kate, Jane, Rita agree on everything? Or what are the discussions among the four of you like when you talk? It looks like Kate is going to--

BRIDGET MCDONALD: Well, I was going to say, Bridget, we-- it sounds like we like to argue. She said, we are even when we agree. So we don't always agree. But we-- politically and according to our theological views, we are simply on the same page. I haven't found anything that we disagree on there. That's two important things in our life.

DAN OLSON: How far back does that go? I mean, what were you like as kids? What was it like growing up in-- it was the farm in Rural Watertown, right?

BRIDGET MCDONALD: Well, it's almost like two--

DAN OLSON: It's Bridget.

BRIDGET MCDONALD: It's Bridget. It's almost like two families because the older-- I mean, there's 11 children. So 11 years between us. And Jane and I are on the bottom of the family. So we did more things together. And we always felt that the top of the family were bossy to us and took care of us, I should say. They took care of us. So I looked at them as more of the taking care of, where the bottom part of the family, we were probably more playful with each other. The older kids had more work to do, I think, so had more responsibility.

But I do think we played a lot of cards, and checkers, and games, and baseball, and Annie, Annie over, and pump, pump, pull away. We played a lot as children. But we had good arguments and verbal fights, you might say. But I don't think we hit each other. We didn't get into physical scraps.

DAN OLSON: Sisters McDonald, Brigid, Kate, Jane, Rita, thank you so much for your time. What a privilege to talk to you.

BRIDGET MCDONALD: Thank you.

RITA MCDONALD: And you as well, Dan. Thank you.

DAN OLSON: Rita, Kate, Briget, and Jane McDonald, sisters and Catholic nuns.

MCDONALD SISTERS: (SINGING) Lead the way on the road from greed to giving. Love will guide us on our way.

DAN OLSON: This is Voices of Minnesota on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Dan Olson. Like the McDonald sisters, the Reverend Peg Chemberlin uses her religious beliefs as the platform for her social activism. It's a coincidence that Peg Chemberlin grew up near the McDonald family farm in neighboring Waconia, also West of Minneapolis.

Peg Chamberlain is director of the Minnesota Council of Churches and is President-elect of the National Council of Churches. I talked with her recently in her Minneapolis office. The National Council of Churches is a 57-year-old organization with 35 member denominations. The council routinely wades into big social issues, war and peace, health care reform, worker rights, minimum wage, the environment, and stakes out a position that many on the right would call left-leaning.

The council's member denominations include baptists, various Orthodox groups, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans, and many others that represent a wide range of religious beliefs and practices. Peg Chemberlin was six when her family moved to Waconia from Nebraska and began the search for a church.

PEG CHEMBERLIN: We moved to Waconia. And the three options we had were pre-Vatican Roman Catholic Church, Missouri Synod Lutheran, which had some pretty strict perspectives on science and religion issues. And evolution was something that you were not really encouraged to believe in. And my father, being a scientist, just could not buy that. And then the minister from the Moravian church came calling with an apple pie and that did it.

The Moravians have a wonderful sense of community. This is significant to who they are. And so we very easily fell into that congregation, felt cared about, welcomed, received by that congregation. I personally felt that. And that made it very easy for me to imagine that I was welcomed and received into the loving arms of God.

DAN OLSON: But not the Ministry. The Reverend Peg Chemberlin remembers at age 16, she was interested in becoming a pastor. However, she learned her denomination, the Moravian church, a small Protestant group, did not ordain women as clergy.

The Moravian church traces its roots to what is now the Czech Republic. One of the denomination's founders broke away from the Roman Catholic Church hundreds of years ago, was declared a heretic by Rome and burned at the stake. Eventually, the Catholic Church retracted its condemnation of the Moravian leader, and also eventually, the Moravian church changed and allowed women to become ministers.

Before she became a Moravian church pastor, Peg Chemberlin worked briefly as an educator, then in campus ministry, and then as director of Minnesota FoodShare. Chemberlin talked about what her work at Minnesota FoodShare taught her about charity and justice.

PEG CHEMBERLIN: I think there is always a tension between charity and justice in that work. As a youngster growing up in Waconia, we had a mission field missionaries come. And of course, we heard about the poverty and the need for support there. But that was Nicaragua, not Waconia. And so to find out that there were neighbors in my backyard, many of whom were children who were going to bed hungry on a regular basis, was a bit of a shock.

And I think there's always been a sense for me that charity and justice are really buds of the same plant, if you will. And that is the healthy community, the common good, if you will. And so asking the question, how do we keep people fed immediately because they need this, this is a basic need, is there with all the food shelf work that we do. And I'm delighted that we continue as Minnesota Council of Churches to support that work. And we're going to try to raise nine million here this spring.

But there was also always a question about, why do we need to separate food distribution systems, one for people who are poor and one for the rest of us? And is this really the most economic way to make sure people are fed. And we knew why people are coming to the food shelves because their basic income, whether that's from grants or wages, doesn't meet their basic outputs, their basic expenses, housing, health care, food, clothing. And any one of those pieces can put a family out of balance and in need of the food shelf. But there would be other ways that we could support that family, too.

So I think anti poverty and economic injustice has been an issue for a long time, and certainly, was there in FoodShare.

DAN OLSON: Is it a political issue? All kinds of groups, religious and otherwise, across the political spectrum, do good work feeding the poor, housing the poor. Is it a political issue?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Well, a year or so ago, on the floor of Congress, they were looking at the budget. And many of us have said that the budget is a moral document. Some would say it's a political document, but it's also a moral document.

And Charlie Rangel, who's from New York, got up on the floor. And he had his Bible open. And he said, it says right here, you got to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick. And then Adam Putnam from Florida got up and he said, yeah, but nowhere does it say that government should do that. And then Emanuel cleaver from Missouri got up and said, yeah, but it does say that the nations will be separated one from another, depending on how they handle those issues.

So it's a political issue when the police, the people of the nation, decide how we're going to make laws that impact economic life. Is it a Democratic issue or a Republican issue? That's not where I am. But what will the people say about how we're going to govern together for the common good?

DAN OLSON: So what does it say about people who say, look, the poor are always with us. Yeah, they shouldn't starve. That's a shame. Yeah, they shouldn't go without housing. That's a shame. But you know what? Some of them have done it to themselves. I mean, is there a judgmental quality that causes your anger, your ire to rise?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Well, I think, we are all making determinations, if not judgments, all the time about what's good for me and my family, and what's good for the community that I live in. And we certainly have judgments about-- the judgments that other people make about those things. And I think that's part of our engagement with each other is to ask those kinds of questions. And I think personal responsibility and corporate responsibility are always part of the same thing. There is no private wealth without the commonwealth, but there is no common good without the private good being attended to by each of us as individuals as well.

DAN OLSON: So how are we doing on that front? I mean, there are people across the political spectrum, I guess, probably more in the middle, maybe, who've made the argument. What, as the CEO or president of a corporation, I'm thinking now of the late Elmer L. Anderson, I think, who famously made this argument, as a corporate entity, licensed and incorporated in the state of Minnesota, I have a responsibility to do good. How is the private sector doing on that, do you think?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Well, I think the private sector, particularly in Minnesota, works hard. We have a wonderful heritage here of contribution in the charity framework. I think the harder piece for us is to decide what does social justice look like. And are there-- are there some basic services that the common good require the populace to pay for in order for the common good to be in good shape.

And that comes right to the question of taxes. And taxes are the price of civilization. Taxes are the cost of there being a common good. I think we have slid way to the right around the conversation about taxes. As you mentioned, Elmer Anderson and Al Quie had a different perspective on taxes than our current governor, for instance.

When Al Quie was governor, he said, we're going to put an income surtax on because we can't meet the basic needs without the surtax. That's a very different perspective than what we're hearing right now.

DAN OLSON: Well, here you are. Here's the Reverend Peg Chemberlin on the record, December 8, 2002. I gather you were speaking from the pulpit here at the Washington National Cathedral, and it was a December sermon. And here on page 2, you're quoting Hubert Humphrey, of all people. And you're saying at this point, "I think we're in deep need of a mid-course correction. As a country, we will continue to be wracked with fear and suspicion, needing to be defensive until we align ourselves with the work of peace and justice." Well, obviously, that was about many issues, including some we're talking about. Well, what do you mean by a mid-course correction?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Well, I think there is a quote that has gone around, and I don't know who to attribute to, but there's nothing particularly safe about being an island of prosperity in a sea of poverty. That-- from a theological vantage point, my well-being is directly related to the well-being of those around me. And I think that's a course correction that those of us who share that value need to be more articulate about.

That's the center of what it means to be the Minnesota Council of Churches, the sense of relatedness that we are all related to one another. We, Christians, are related to one another in the body of Christ. And through Christ, through the creator, we're related to all of creation. We-- to take that as our central understanding of the world of the universe, rather than an isolated perspective might suggest some changes on the political scene.

DAN OLSON: Do you think most Americans agree with you or disagree with you? Can you tell?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: I wish I knew the answer to that. The people who I work with, the bishops and the executives definitely would articulate that. They're the ones who came up with our mission statement. Whether all of the people in their pews believe that, it's hard to tell.

But I think there is-- certainly in Minnesota, we have that kind of heritage here in Minnesota. We have had a very strong voice in the center of the church and the center of the political spectrum, saying, we're all in this together and we need to figure out what's best for the whole.

DAN OLSON: The Reverend Peg Chemberlin, executive director of the Minnesota Council of Churches and President-elect of the National Council of Churches. The National Council of churches is active in its advocacy of social justice issues, including war and peace, housing, health care, worker rights, and much more. Some of the council's 35 member denominations take the words of the Bible quite literally. They forbid the ordination of women and consider homosexuality a sin. Here's more of the conversation with the Reverend Peg Chemberlin.

Has the Bible, the version that many Christians use, turned out to become a pretty divisive document?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: I think it has been used by a certain portion of the church who have used the authority of scripture as a divisive document. I don't think most people in the pews are, particularly in the member denominations of the Minnesota council, are going to really get in line with that.

I think the important thing is to trust and believe that people on both sides of that discussion have a very authentic place in their heart and in their head about what it is they're trying to do. And that's worthy of respect on both sides.

DAN OLSON: Does the Bible get in the way, sometimes, too often, of what a sense of community among members of the Church that, look, if we spend too much time focusing on what the Bible really means, we forget about the work that needs to be done?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: I would never say that. The Bible never gets in the way. How we approach the Bible and how we use the bible, whether that it's a tool for our understanding God's will in broad and depthful ways or whether it's used as a weapon to say you're in and you're out makes all the difference in the world. But that's our use of the bible, not the Bible.

DAN OLSON: The role of religion. Is religion on balance, do you think, a force for good these days? We won't go into the past. History is another matter. But these days, is religion on balance, organized religion, a force for good?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: I hope so. Are we always in need of our own mid-course corrections? Yes. Are we always in need of our own reformation? Yes. And I think-- I hope that that lesson has been learned by the Christian church. I believe that it has.

At the same time, we're talking about people's deepest values, the values that give my life meaning. And those-- that kind of passion, that kind of commitment, that kind of deep value can certainly be used and manipulated for purposes other than what I believe God intends.

DAN OLSON: As a person of the church, as a clergy person, how do you get along with people whose religions are OK with discrimination against women, subjugation of women? How do you feel about that?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Well, I think that there are personal and communal conversations here. Obviously, my own sense of call would make it very difficult for me to be someplace that did not affirm that call. On the other hand, we have partnerships with many, many organizations, denominations, Christian communions, who think very differently about that.

And there's no litmus test. For an ecumenist, there's no litmus test. So for me, there's no litmus test that says, well, if you don't agree with me on this, then we can't deal with anything else. We're in an ongoing, unfolding process of understanding God's will in our world. And that means everybody who is given to me as a partner is somebody to be respected and worked with.

DAN OLSON: Here in the news, we hear recently calls from different religious traditions for interfaith dialogues. And my question is, what good could that possibly do since the various religious traditions of the world seem to agree on very little, actually, ever?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Well, I think we actually agree on a lot more than we often say we do. The Joint Religious Legislative Coalition has 35-plus year history here in Minnesota, started out as anything that the. Christian leaders, Protestant leaders, Catholic leaders, and Jewish leaders could agree on. We would work on together at Capitol Hill. We've now added the Islamic Center of Minnesota.

And there are reams of pages of papers of positions that we agree on, social justice kinds of issues, the caring for the elderly, the caring for our young, making sure that people have adequate housing and health care and so forth.

I also think that we-- when we begin to talk theologically, that issues like mercy and compassion are very much shared within the context of those various faith groups. Now, not every wing of every faith group would lead with mercy and compassion. We know that. The Christian church has not-- has had moments when it did not lead with mercy and compassion. But it's in the sacred texts of all the major world religions. And when we sit down together with each other and talk about those things, we find that valuable.

DAN OLSON: I'm sure you already have been, and probably more so now as you become a leader of the National Council of Churches, you'll be in meetings with people whose religious tradition rejects the leadership role of women. What will you do?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Well, I think this is the kind of respect that we find in the ecumenical world that even though the Catholic Church may not agree that women should be ordained, I have found every bishop, every Catholic Bishop in this state to be very respectful about my role as a convener of the faith community from time to time. And I think that we will find the same thing at the National level, too.

I've been at the table long enough to know leadership in the Orthodox community. In fact, it was a Greek Orthodox Bishop who chaired the committee that put forward my nomination for President-elect.

DAN OLSON: What's the most pressing social issue in our country right now, do you think?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Well, I think all of us are asking the question about whether, what's the moral alternative path in front of us in Iraq? I hope that we're also asking the long term question about, do we think that this was a moral alternative to begin with? And if not, and I think most of us think not, and the faith community was very strong on the front end, saying, we don't think this is a moral alternative. How are we going to, as a community, find a way to not make that kind of decision or allow that kind of decision to be made for us in the future?

I think the question that's been there for way too long and will continue to be there is the economic divide. And I hear our bishops regularly asking the question, this economic divide is growing and the whole cannot hold if that continues to happen. So I think the economic, the justice question, and the peace questions are as they've been for many years, central issues.

DAN OLSON: What do you think the war in Iraq and its continuation is doing to Americans? Is it uniting us? Is it dividing us? Does it matter?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Well, I hope that the war in Iraq is making all of us think deeply about our own particular role in foreign policy. And that may sound odd, what role do I have Minnesotan here in foreign policy? Well, obviously, we all have to have some kind of role to say, this is the kind of foreign policy we want to be about.

That doesn't solve the situation in Iraq. I don't know the answer to Iraq. But I do think that we have to be asking ourselves, who will we be in the future as a world leader?

DAN OLSON: What was your reaction to the recent survey done by the Pew forum finding that, gosh, I guess it found a lot of things, including the fact that quite a number of Americans have apparently waved goodbye to organized religion?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: It takes a lot of work to organize religion. I can understand why people might not want to be part of that organizing. I do think there is-- there are a number of major spiritual quests going on and questions going on. What's the meaning of life? And why am I here? And how am I to be a valuable, worthwhile person in my life?

And I think that it's sometimes tough for the local church to just spend as much time as it needs to with its congregants on those kinds of questions. We get caught up in a world of so very many options. Sometimes, it's hard for us to. Be focused on those issues.

How do we do the internal work that all of us need, the kind of reflection that is required for us to have a course and to stay on that course in our own lives, and at the same time, be very engaged with all the needs of the world around us? It's tough to do both of those things at the same time.

DAN OLSON: Do you find something more specific within the findings when you look at the numbers which show that some of the mainline, old line denominations, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians, Methodists maybe are losing numbers, while some of the others, Jehovah's Witness, I guess, is fastest growing, Latter Day Saint, a very small but quite fast growing. What should we draw from that?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Well, I want to be somewhat careful about what we draw from that. For instance, in the last decade, one of our evangelical communities here in Minnesota, the Minnesota Baptist Conference, which is the old Swedish Baptist general conference, has had enormous increase, 44% increase.

But in raw numbers, that's the same as the Lutheran decrease. So-- and for the Lutherans, it's just 1%. So we have to take all of that in a certain framework to understand, raw numbers shift and change may not be as significant as the percentages suggest to us.

DAN OLSON: To use an unfortunate expression, does the body count matter? Does the number of names on the church rolls matter? Or are you fine as a member of an organized religious group and leader of a great big organized religious group? Are you comfortable with the fact that, well, some folks are just wandering out, taking walks, and finding spiritual comfort in their own way?

PEG CHEMBERLIN: I think as an ecumenist, as one who has been walking the ecumenical path for some time, I know that there are great deal of great gifts. There are many great gifts. And one of the values of being at the ecumenical table is that you get to partake of all of those gifts to some degree.

I can't say where the spirit is gifting us in new places and new ways. I am convinced that we're carrying some gifts from the past that will continue to be needed in the future. I don't-- I really doubt that the Trinity, at the end of the day, sit down and take a body count, except that at the end of the day, the Trinity sits down and asks about Bob, and Ephraim, and Sally, and Emmanuel, and Fatima, and says, how are my children? How are my children doing? How are the children tonight?

So I'm going to continue to believe that each one of us is held in the loving and graceful arms of God and is counted in that way, not necessarily how our membership is doing and whether it's up to date.

DAN OLSON: The Reverend Peg Chemberlin. Thanks so much. A pleasure talking with you.

PEG CHEMBERLIN: Thanks, Dan, it's been great. I enjoyed it. Thank you very much.

DAN OLSON: The Reverend Peg Chemberlin is the President-elect of the National Council of Churches. She's executive director of the Minnesota Council of Churches. This is Voices of Minnesota from Minnesota Public Radio News. I'm Dan Olson in Saint Paul.

GARY EICHTEN: And that does it for our Midday program today. Gary Eichten here. I like to thank you for tuning in. Of course, all of Dan's Voices of Minnesota programs are archived on our website, minnesotapublicradio.org. Just go to Midday and check out the program that you're particularly interested in. minnesotapublicradio.org.

We have Talk of the Nation from National Public Radio coming up right after news headlines here on Minnesota Public Radio. Tomorrow, invitation to join us for Midday Westminster Town Hall forum. We're going off to Westminster Presbyterian. We're going to hear from Os Guinness, noted British scholar, former Brookings Institution, Woodrow Wilson fellow, talking about the need and the case for civility in America, with a new book, The Case for Civility, why America's future depends on it, tomorrow on Midday.

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