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GRETA CUNNINGHAM: From Minnesota Public Radio, I'm Greta Cunningham. Minneapolis Police say two men are in custody today in connection with the fatal shooting of an 11-year-old girl who was struck by a stray bullet.

The arrests come four days after Tyesha Edwards, a sixth grade honor student, was shot as she was working on her home computer. Police say the man they believe fired the shot was arrested yesterday. Minneapolis Mayor RT Rybak says the shooting appears to be gang related. He was at the hospital with the Edwards family when Tyesha died. Rybak says the family is grateful for all the support they've received.

RT RYBAK: One of the things that's really special about them is that they are-- they're people who their first impulse is to open their arms out to folks. And even in the middle of all of this, they've been-- as people have come forward, they've been incredibly warm.

GRETA CUNNINGHAM: A police spokeswoman says, police are planning another announcement today.

Austin-based Hormel Foods Corporation today announced the largest profit sharing distribution ever made to its employees. More than $12.5 million was distributed to eligible hourly and salaried employees company wide today. That averages out to a little more than 2 and 1/2 extra weekly paychecks per employee. Hormel began its profit sharing plan in 1938.

Las Vegas Casino owner and University of North Dakota benefactor Ralph Engelstad has died. He was 72. Engelstad is a UND alumnus and former goaltender on the school's hockey team. He gave the school $100 million to finance its new hockey arena. He was also a staunch advocate of keeping the school's controversial Fighting Sioux nickname. Forbes magazine has listed him among the nation's richest people.

The forecast for Minnesota calls for mostly cloudy skies statewide. There's a chance of some snow in the north today, with highs in the 20s. Now in International Falls, some light snow in 17. In the Twin Cities, overcast skies and 25. That's the news update. I'm Greta Cunningham.

SPEAKER 1: Programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by US Link, a full service provider of local, long distance, and internet services to businesses and residential customers throughout Minnesota. On the web at [? USLink.com. ?]

GARY EICHTEN: It's six minutes now past 12.

[BLIND BOYS OF ALABAMA, "PEOPLE GET READY"]

(SINGING) People get ready

There's a train a-coming

You don't need no baggage

You just get on board

All you need is faith to hear the diesels humming

You don't need no ticket

You just thank the Lord

People get ready for the train to Jordan

Picking up passengers from Coast to Coast

Faith is the key

Open up the door and board them

There's hope for all

Among those who love the most

GARY EICHTEN: Good afternoon, and welcome back to Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary Eichten.

Funeral services were held this morning for James Griffin, a true Minnesota trailblazer. Mr. Griffin, who was 85 years old, died Saturday after a year-long fight with bladder cancer and a lifetime of firsts.

James Griffin was Saint Paul's first Black police sergeant, first Black police captain, first Black deputy chief. He served 17 years on the Saint Paul school board. He was a well-known Minnesota sports referee. He had a football stadium named in his honor, Saint Paul Central High School's football field.

And perhaps most telling of all, James Griffin, a man of so many achievements, came to be called Saint Paul's first Black statesman. Five years ago, James Griffin was interviewed by Minnesota Public Radio's John Biewen as part of our Voices of Minnesota series.

And today, we're going to rebroadcast that interview. It begins with a recounting of James Griffin's rise through the ranks of the Saint Paul Police Department to deputy police chief.

JOHN BIEWEN: You joined the Saint Paul police force in 1941?

JAMES GRIFFIN: Correct.

JOHN BIEWEN: Is that right? Now, people--

JAMES GRIFFIN: August the 6th.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, people have said to me James Griffin was the first Black cop in Saint Paul. Now, that's wrong by, what, 50, 60 years?

JAMES GRIFFIN: Yeah. I was known-- I was not. The first Black police officer in Saint Paul was in 1881, his name was Lewis Thomas.

JOHN BIEWEN: You rose-- although you were a long way from being the first Black officer, you rose through the ranks. And I believe you were the first deputy chief, Black--

JAMES GRIFFIN: Yup.

JOHN BIEWEN: --deputy chief in Minneapolis.

JAMES GRIFFIN: No--

JOHN BIEWEN: When did you become--

JAMES GRIFFIN: --in Saint Paul.

JOHN BIEWEN: Sorry, in Saint Paul. When did you become deputy chief?

JAMES GRIFFIN: 1970-- '72.

JOHN BIEWEN: And there's a story behind that, I believe. You had to--

JAMES GRIFFIN: Yes, there is.

JOHN BIEWEN: You had to fight a little bit to get that promotion.

JAMES GRIFFIN: Oh, yes. I've had to fight for everything I got. And the police grabbed it.

JOHN BIEWEN: What happened?

JAMES GRIFFIN: Well, they gave an examination for deputy chief of police, Civil Service examination. I finished number one on the test. And he appointed the guy who was number two. And I thought that that was an injustice.

So I contacted Doug Thompson, one of Saint Paul's leading attorneys. And I asked him, would he take the case. I had been assigned to the courts for a while. And I knew a lot of lawyers. And he said, yeah, he'd take it.

One thing I never will forget. When he said he would take it, after we talked a while and so forth, I knew I had the right guy because he said to me, Jim, he says, I don't make this statement very often. But he says, I'll guarantee you, I'll win this case. So I felt pretty good about that. And he was right.

JOHN BIEWEN: Now, was it traditional to-- you were a sergeant at the time or--

JAMES GRIFFIN: No, I was a captain.

JOHN BIEWEN: OK. And was it traditional for the person who did the best on the test to get the job?

JAMES GRIFFIN: For over 30 years, the number one person on getting on the job or on a promotion list, always got the job. So I was the first guy that they passed by. And that was what-- Doug Thompson had said, we're not going to use our race issue on this. He said, we're going to go that they broke from precedent.

We had a hearing before the Civil Rights for St. Paul, city and state, and Civil Service board and so forth. And it got to be quite a public issue. Papers were full of it. TV and radio were full of it. And people were starting to-- took sides.

And people were starting to write into the opinion pages for the Pioneer Press and Dispatch. And believe it or not, most of the-- it was surprising. Most of the people kind of-- in those articles they were writing in the paper, took the position that the guy that got the highest grade should have the job. So I felt pretty good about that.

And we had hassled for about three months. And finally, they decided to make a fourth deputy chief. And of course, some of the people said they would mean the job for me.

But my lawyer says, Jim, a lot of people will say that. But he says, I know it and you know it. And most of the people know that the reason they made the fourth deputy chief so they wouldn't have to cut this guy back. So that's what happened.

JOHN BIEWEN: James griffin, you were born in 1917--

JAMES GRIFFIN: Yup.

JOHN BIEWEN: --right here in Saint Paul?

JAMES GRIFFIN: Yup, July the 6th, 1917.

JOHN BIEWEN: Now, I was looking at some census data. The Black population of Saint Paul in the '20s and '30s was 3,000 or 4,000--

JAMES GRIFFIN: That's right.

JOHN BIEWEN: --about 1% of the city's population.

JAMES GRIFFIN: Correct.

JOHN BIEWEN: We've heard a lot about what it was like to be Black in that era, in other places, in other places where there were a lot more Black people, particularly the Jim Crow South. What was it like to be Black in Saint Paul at that time?

JAMES GRIFFIN: Well, of course, we, the Blacks, have always been discriminated against. But the one thing that happened in Minnesota, we were probably far ahead of the rest of the country on civil rights. And so we didn't have segregated schools. We could go to the parks, in the library, and all public places.

The toughest problem we had was in restaurants and hotels. Otherwise, why-- and of course, the schools were not-- they passed a law in 1868. There would be no segregated schools in Minnesota, the state legislature. So the things that we did around here in comparison to other places was far above.

But there were still some of the things in there, like the University of Minnesota wouldn't let you stay on the campus or there were discriminatory practices. I know they tried to keep Blacks from going to the theater. That went to court. And the courts ruled in favor of that Black person.

And there was a girl, there was a family of Murrays. They lived in the same block with us when we were small. They were discriminated against the theater in downtown. And they took it to court, and the court ruled in their favor.

JOHN BIEWEN: What about the major employers in that era?

JAMES GRIFFIN: The major employers? In the same boat, just like to every place else. The employment problem has been a problem for-- we, as Blacks, for centuries. And the big companies, I don't care that it was Saint Paul, Minnesota, or Atlanta, Georgia, or New Orleans or Chicago or anything, they discriminated against employment.

At one time, they wouldn't even let Blacks work on the line in Detroit when they were making cars at places like Ford and Chrysler. And this was a railroad center. And at one time, they used to say that one out of every family in Saint Paul made a living from the railroad industry.

But the only thing that we as Blacks were allowed to do in the railroad industry, we could be waiters and train porters on the railroads. And you could be a sleeping car porter for the Pullman Company. Clerical jobs and salespeople, we didn't get those kind of jobs. There was always a few token jobs, a few Blacks working in the Post Office.

And the city and the state always had a handful of white collar workers and so forth. There was always a lawyer, a couple of doctors around. But the employment situation was the toughest.

And the biggest blow we had when the Depression came along, at one time, all the hotels in Saint Paul used to hired Black waiters. And In about 1931, the hotels got rid of all the Black waiters and hired waitresses. And the only thing they kept was the room service waiters. They kept Black males on that.

But for years, places like the Saint Paul and the Lowry and the Ryan, they had Black waiters until that was in 1930s. That was the Depression hit us hard. And of course, when the Depression hit, the low person on the totem pole always gets hurt the worst.

And it used to be a thing, and it still goes. We're always the last hired and the first fired. So that was the way it was.

JOHN BIEWEN: Tell me about your family. What did your parents do?

JAMES GRIFFIN: Well, my dad was a dining car waiter with the Northern Pacific. And my folks came to-- my grandparents came here in 1906. And they lived on Rondo and Farrington when they first came here.

But you see, at that time, [CHUCKLES] Rondo was mostly white. But there was a small Black community in that area. And then as the thing grew, the largest percentage of Black people lived in the Rondo area. And that's the way it was.

But we were in such a small number of groups. And I think a lot of people, as our population grew as the years to come, the people who came here, came from the south and came from the big cities. It was hard for them to understand. And most of them didn't understand how small our Black population was, 1%.

And then one of the reasons why you can tell that we had an integrated city, a few years ago, there was an article written that this-- was written by a Black person, too, that Blacks were only allowed to go to three public schools in Saint Paul. Well, that was not very accurate.

So a fellow by the name of Dr. George Berry, who was the first Black to serve on the school board. And a guy named Martin Weddington and I, we laughed about that. And we sat down and started just for the heck of it and test our memory.

We talked about the-- in the '20s and the '30s, where Black kids went to school. And we used elementary schools. And we came up with a list of 25. So that we go to 25 schools. You had to be pretty well spread out.

JOHN BIEWEN: You lived in the Rondo neighborhood as a child?

JAMES GRIFFIN: I lived in Rondo neighborhood for over 40 years. And I was born in the house. I wasn't born in the hospital. I was born in at 587 Rondo.

JOHN BIEWEN: Now, Rondo has often been described as a very, very tight knit community. Was it that simple?

JAMES GRIFFIN: Well, to me, that's not very true. All of that cohesiveness was in one group. The people that were-- the people who attended the churches and were interested in their homes and so forth. There was a cohesiveness in that group.

But the people who were a little bit lower-- and then, of course, you see the people who were dining car waiters, always felt superior to the people who were working for the Pullman Company or the packing house.

JOHN BIEWEN: Now, you have been very active in sports throughout your life. You served on boards of directors of several youth athletic programs. You wrote a sports column for the St. Paul Recorder newspaper.

JAMES GRIFFIN: Yes, that's true.

JOHN BIEWEN: James S. Griffin Stadium at Central High School is named after you in 1987. You were an athlete at Central in the '30s, I take it?

JAMES GRIFFIN: No.

JOHN BIEWEN: You weren't?

JAMES GRIFFIN: I was never eligible to play in the scholastic sports. I played mostly in the city leagues around here. And [INAUDIBLE] Brown had football and basketball teams. And I played with them.

But I never was-- I was on the basketball team and I got dropped because of poor grades. A guy named DD Han was a coach at that time. He went on to be the dean of UCLA.

But I played on some network, the teams that won city championships and stuff like that. And then a guy that used to play for University of Minnesota, a guy named Ellsworth Harpole, he took an assistant coaching job down the West Virginia State college. And I ended up down there.

I played a little sports down there and--

JOHN BIEWEN: What sports?

JAMES GRIFFIN: --met my wife. I was on the football team. And I was on the squad. I wasn't a regular because the first year I went down there, why, we were national Negro champions.

And that was the Depression years. They didn't have baseball at West Virginia State College. Most a lot of the small colleges in the seconds didn't have baseball. We had a softball team, and I played on that. And we were undefeated down in their area.

And I got to be a-- after I left there, I got involved as an official. And my first time I ever officiated the high school game, I was a sophomore. And I was in physical Ed was then on the campus. They had a high school on the campus. Of course, it was an all Black school.

The guy who had been the big star on the football team in 1936, had graduated. And he had-- he was the football and basketball coach there at the high school there. So I'm laying up in my room, one day in the afternoon, he came in there. He said, get up and get your clothes on. I said, for what? He said, I want you to referee a basketball game for me.

I said, you and Spike Corbin-- knows a guy who lived right down the hall from me named Corbin. And he was from up in Massachusetts. I said, well, when? He said, right now. I said, you kidding? He said, no. He said, I only get fouled up on the officials.

So I went down with this guy. And I went down and refereed this game and went real well. And this guy saw his work and he hired us. And when they played the return game at Montgomery, West Virginia, that was the first time in my life I ever been into a segregated high school.

And that went pretty good. And they hired us for another game down there. So I got interested in it. Then I jumped up and got married and ran out of money. In those days, money was short. And so I came back home.

And I tried to start officiating around here. And I had a lot of trouble. But there was a guy by the name of Jimmy Lee. Jimmy Lee Playground is named after him. He was older than I am, and he was a top official. And he opened the doors to officiating.

And then after that, things got started. I followed behind him. A few years went by. And Minnesota State High School League established a Hall of Fame in about 10, 12 years ago.

And they voted me in the first Hall of Fame class, me and the-- there was 10 of us. And another Black guy named Bill McMoore. He was the athletic director. He used to play football for Minnesota and was the athletic director in Minneapolis Public Schools.

So he and I were voted in there. And since that time, they voted two other guys in there, two other Black guys in there. And my hobby was Blacks in sports for years.

And one of the things, it was easy to keep up with the Black athletes in the big time schools because most of those schools wouldn't let them play. They had an unwritten rule in the Big Ten until 1944, '45, when it was broken by the University of Iowa-- no Black basketball players. A lot of people don't know that. But that's true.

But Minnesota had let guys play other sports. They played football, baseball here at Minnesota. Matter of fact, the first Black football player was a guy named Bobby Marshall. And of course, most of the time the small colleges would let you play.

Going to give you an example, Gustavus. Dr. George-- no, Lloyd Hollingsworth, he's the athletic director and the football coach there. We'll tell him when he first came back, he went off to-- soon he was a colonel or something in the army.

And he said when he first came back to Gustavus after he got out of the war, was coaching, he had a couple of Black football players. They were going to go down to Kansas to play.

And he said, the manager-- I told the manager to get down there and get us a reservation for the team. And they got all that taken care of. And the guy said to me, you got any niggers on that team?

And the guy said, well, we got a couple of colored fellas on that team. Well, he says, you can't stay at this hotel. So he said, well, I'll tell you. The coach isn't going to go for that. And he said, what do you mean?

He said, if those guys can't play, he said he's not going to stay at this hotel. And they had to go 50 miles from where they were going to play to get accommodations where everybody could play because Lloyd Hollingsworth said, no, he wasn't going to practice that kind of discrimination.

And if they couldn't, if all of the players on his team couldn't play, then they wouldn't play. They wouldn't stay at that hotel. So there were always people who made a stand on that.

And of course, the Minnesota years ago had done some things that weren't so hot either. When my buddy, who I grew up with, named Dwight Reed, played for Minnesota in the '30s-- well, in the '30s, Minnesota was always in the top 10. And they played the University of Texas.

And Dwight Reed was on the team. They wouldn't let Dwight play right here over there in Minneapolis.

JOHN BIEWEN: Because Texas wouldn't play with them?

JAMES GRIFFIN: Texas who said that if he played, they wouldn't play.

JOHN BIEWEN: So Minnesota coach kept him out.

JAMES GRIFFIN: Kept him out.

JOHN BIEWEN: Now you are-- you're retired, obviously. But you're keeping busy. How are you spending your days?

JAMES GRIFFIN: Well, I'm on several boards around town. I'm on the board of Minnesota Historical Society. I'm on the board of the certain club that's the oldest Black men's club still in existence. I'm on the board there.

And I have served on the board of over a dozen different organizations. I was on the board of the Hallie Q. Brown. I was on the Red Cross. And I was on the board of Big Brothers, all those kind of organizations.

When we first had a police union, at one time, I was a vice president of the police union. And for about 20 years, I was on the board of the Saint Paul Police Benevolent Association. That's kind of a little private insurance, such of a death bed that we had in the police department.

And I was on the Board of Education for 17 years. And so I was present at Saint Paul Officials Association. I was a commissioner of basketball officials in the northern intercollegiate conference that made up of schools outstate like Winona and Moorhead and Bemidji and schools like that.

And I was the head of the official. I assigned all the basketball officials in that league for 14 years. So I had a wide variety of things. When they gave me that job, I signed those officials in that league.

That was unheard of. A black guy having a job like that. And so I traveled around in some places. I'd tell guys what I did. And there, I'd tell the Black guys, they wouldn't believe it. So those are the things that happened and there were so many things that happened around in Minnesota that just weren't done in other places.

JOHN BIEWEN: You're a history buff.

JAMES GRIFFIN: Yes, I am.

JOHN BIEWEN: You mentioned you're on the board of the Minnesota Historical Society. You are one of those people that people like me, reporters, go to when we want to know something about, particularly Black History in Minnesota, but in Saint Paul in particular. What would you want people to know about Saint Paul history that they don't seem to know if you could name one thing?

JAMES GRIFFIN: Well, I kind think that they should know about early Saint Paul because if they learned about early Saint Paul the other things will fall into place. And as I say, I think they should know that we had people doing things here in Minnesota that they weren't doing other places.

When the founders of the National-- NAACP, came from Saint Paul. And we had a guy in the state legislature in 1899. He had a Black schoolteacher in 1890. He had Black policemen. And in 1881, he had a guy named John Quincy Adams, a Black guy who was assistant city clerk in 1899 in Saint Paul.

And then back in 1966, we had the first Black elected officials in Saint Paul. They used to have a job. And it's been abolished now, called the clerk of district court. And a guy named Weston, Freddy Weston, was elected clerk of the district court in 1966 with a landslide vote. He beat the guy he ran against in the finals, 3 to 1.

And at that time, less than-- it was about 1% of the people in Ramsey County were Black. And when I was on the board of Education, I used to lead the ticket all the time. And we ran for Citywide.

And I was appointed to fill an unexpired term of Dr. Berry. Then I had to run for election, and that was in 1974. I believe it was-- yeah, 1974 and Cohen was the mayor. He only got 715 more votes than I did as a member running for the school board.

Well, the next year, I dropped to second. And the next two elections that I ran, I led the ticket. And that was citywide. It wasn't my district. And so. I feel pretty good about that because I used to go to the National School Board conventions.

And I used to go to the police conventions. I'm a life member of the IACP. That's International Association of Chiefs of Police. I used to go to their conventions in the school board.

And one of the things that I found out in traveling around there, I met a guy in Texas. He said he was on the school board there. And he said, I was on the school board down there. I forgot the name of the town in Texas. He said, I was on the school board for two years before I ever made a motion to get a second.

So those are the kind of things. And I used to go to places and people would say to me, how did you get on the school board with that little small population you've got there? Same thing about deputy chief. So how did you get to be deputy chief with such a small Black population?

And I said, well, that's the way it was. And I just think that one of the biggest reasons for that was the small black population here. And then we didn't have a lot of transients. It was cold here. You didn't get a lot of transients coming to Minnesota, Black or white, in the wintertime. [CHUCKLES] Still don't.

And so those are things that-- the realities of life. So I had my confrontations with them. But overall, I think I got along pretty well. As I say, I think as far as I'm concerned, Saint Paul's was one of the better places in the country. I don't say it's the best. But I'd say it was one of the better places.

And I said, I'm pretty satisfied. And I feel fortunate to have the opportunity of growing up in Saint Paul.

GARY EICHTEN: James Griffin, known as Saint Paul's first Black statesman, speaking with Minnesota Public Radio's John Biewen. That interview was recorded five years ago as part of our Voices of Minnesota series. Mr Griffin died on Saturday. Services are being held in Saint Paul today.

Well, to conclude this hour of Midday, we're going to focus on some other Minnesotans who have left their mark. For 20 years, a Minneapolis couple has collected day-old baked goods and given them to the needy. Every weekday, Shirley and Harry Kaiser make their rounds, delivering the food to homeless shelters, the elderly, and others in need.

At 83 and 74 years of age, the Kaisers say they have no plans to retire, Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Olson reports.

DAN OLSON: One day 20 years ago, retired postal worker Harry Kaiser walked into his neighborhood convenience store to buy a loaf of bread.

HARRY KAISER: It was all over the floor, so I started to pick one up. And the guy said, we're going to throw that out. You better take one off the shelf. I said, could I get this stuff? He said, I'll have to talk to the manager. And a couple of days later, I went over there and he says, yeah, you can have the bread.

DAN OLSON: Harry Kaiser, raised during the Great Depression in a family with 10 children, carried the day-old bread to a nearby shelter for homeless women.

HARRY KAISER: I didn't like to see that bread go to waste and the Incarnation House was on a limited budget. And it just started to grow.

MAN: [INAUDIBLE]

DAN OLSON: Now, five days a week, starting early in the morning, Shirley Kaiser, Harry's wife, makes the rounds of local supermarkets and loads up their blue Chevy wagon with day-old baked goods.

SHIRLEY KAISER: If they have it, we can get rid of it. [LAUGHS]

DAN OLSON: Shirley, wearing jacket and gloves and her silver white hair topped with a hat to Ward off the winter cold, returns to the Kaisers' South Minneapolis bungalow. Harry, wearing a battered green jacket and a baseball cap, helps her carry the boxes and bags into the house.

[RUSTLING]

Inside, every dining room and living room surface is covered with baked goods. There are breads and rolls of every description. Pies are parked on the dining room. China cabinet. The day's collection includes dozens of small cakes that will go to a nearby children's home.

Most of the dining room table is taken up with a huge cardboard box donated by a local bakery filled with rolls and donuts slathered with frosting. Harry and Shirley sort and pack boxes for the nine groups that receive the items.

SHIRLEY KAISER: We prefer to go to the smaller shelters. They get kind of overlooked.

DAN OLSON: The Kaisers deliver to a nearby food shelf, a hospice for people with AIDS, a shelter for homeless women, a neighborhood apartment building filled with mostly elderly people living on a fixed income.

SHIRLEY KAISER: The minute we bring a box in there, we're told that in five minutes, it's gone.

DAN OLSON: Their favorite stop is Peace House. The gray brick drop-in center on Franklin Avenue in Minneapolis's Phillips neighborhood is filled with men and women looking for a warm spot on a cold day. One of the regulars spots the Kaisers and greets them with the nicknames he's pinned on them.

Harry's face beams at the recognition and the banter.

MAN 1: Harry Truman and the First Lady Shirley, tomorrow, our hearts birthday. I'll be 52.

MAN 2: He always wanted moonshine. Believe it or not, I found a pop can and said moonshine. And gave it to me. And I said, Harry, is that moonshine? And I looked. I said, moonshine. I still got that. I treasure that. I don't know whether I should drink it or just look at it for a hundred years.

[LAUGHTER]

DAN OLSON: Patrick, another drop-in center visitor, also sees the Kaisers every day. He says, there are plenty of places where food is served. But few where the people who donate stop to talk. A gift Patrick values.

PATRICK: It's good. It's a blessed thing that they do this out of the kindness of their heart. You know what I mean? Without certain people to donate and stuff like this to this place, it would really be a pretty rough, rough-- have a little rough time there.

DAN OLSON: The baked goods brought by the Kaisers are whisked away. They're saved for the next morning when people who've spent a night, some without food or shelter, will return, looking for a warm place and something to eat.

Shirley Kaiser, in her 70s, devotes full time to the bread collection. She's Harry's eyes. At 83, he's legally blind and has no driver's license.

SHIRLEY KAISER: Now I'm fully retired, so now we could spend all this time together. Doing this keeps us busy, and we love it. [LAUGHS]

DAN OLSON: As thanks, one of the shelters gave the Kaisers a pair of tickets to a touring Broadway show that came through town recently. Peace House invites them to the center's annual party at a local restaurant. Other than that, they take no money for their work.

Harry, a joker, wonders if that's been such a good idea.

HARRY KAISER: No, I wish that I would have, I'd be a millionaire.

[LAUGHTER]

DAN OLSON: Harry Kaiser, every weekday for 20 years, he and his wife Shirley, sometimes aided by one of their 9 children or 19 grandchildren, collect and distribute donated baked goods. Dan Olson, Minnesota Public Radio.

GARY EICHTEN: Once again this year, several social service agencies will be serving free Thanksgiving meals to the needy around the region. Among them, Meals on Wheels, the Salvation Army, Sharing and Caring Hands, the Dorothy Day Center, and of course, the Union Gospel Mission, which has been helping disadvantaged folks in Saint Paul for a hundred years.

The mission will be serving dinner at noon tomorrow at its headquarters on University Avenue in Saint Paul. It will also be serving meals at 17 senior citizen buildings. Last year, as a point of reference, the Union Gospel Mission served nearly 300,000 meals throughout the year.

Mission also provides the poor with housing, dental, medical, child care, and counseling services, chemical dependency, and work readiness programs, a full array of programs designed to help people who need help.

And to conclude this hour, we thought we'd learn a little bit more about the Union Gospel Mission, specifically the Mission's executive director, George Verley, who is wrapping up 45 years with the Union Gospel Mission. Mr. Verley is resigning at the end of the year.

Now, if you have a quick question or a comment for George Verley, we don't have a lot of time. But we'd like to get your questions on the air. Give us a call here at 651-227-6000, 651-227-6000. Outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll free. That number is 1-800-242-2828.

George Verley, thank you so much for coming in today.

GEORGE VERLEY: Oh, my privilege.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, first of all, are you really stepping down? I noticed in the newspaper, your brother Frank was quoted as saying he has serious doubts about when the time comes that you'll be able to actually slow down.

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, my brother Frank is an interesting gentleman. He is-- one of the comments he made in there, he said, well, I didn't know they'd quote me. I said, well, you're talking to media people. You are liable to get quoted.

GARY EICHTEN: [LAUGHS]

GEORGE VERLEY: I'm going to be involved in probably the dental clinic and a little bit of the children's program at the Mission but nowhere near the level I am now.

GARY EICHTEN: What is the Union Gospel Mission? Is it a church? How do you describe yourself?

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, it's a Christian organization that was put together a hundred years ago to provide a ministry to the less fortunate folk on the street. And then it was men. And it's since expanded to moms. It had a children's program forever.

I came to the children's program in 1942 at the Boys Club behind the old Mission. But it's a housing component. It's an educational program. It's a recovery from alcohol and drugs. It's a transitional living counseling services. It's a child care center for the moms who live right behind the studio here at our Naomi Family Center.

And it's a children's camp out in Shoreview that I attended as a nine-year-old kid, lived in the inner city and for a dollar, the Mission took us for a week to camp. And it was just a wonderful experience to escape from 10th Street in downtown Saint Paul, across from the old city market, to go out to camp and run around the hills out there and learn to swim and do handicraft and mostly discover that God loved me.

And that was such an important thing in my life. And is so important to other folk that sometimes when your self-esteem is low, to discover that God really loves you, that's an important theory and an important tenet of ours.

GARY EICHTEN: Where does the Mission get its money?

GEORGE VERLEY: Contributions.

GARY EICHTEN: Purely donations from regular people or--

GEORGE VERLEY: Yes, we do not receive government funds. We don't get United Way funds. The problem is that we're a Christian organization. And if you get government funds, no matter how much they like to talk about faith-based funding, there's some strings attached as far as the spiritual program.

And the Mission's board of directors has stayed away from that. And the Lord has paid the bills for a hundred years. Why should we want to change that formula?

GARY EICHTEN: Now, just as a point of reference, how does your organization differ, say, from the Salvation army, which is also a Christian organization?

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, in Saint Paul, they don't have a housing component like we have. They have some centers in Saint Paul. And they do a wonderful work. We work in conjunction with them often. It's just that they don't have the housing facilities in Saint Paul that we do.

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hmm. When people show up looking for some assistance, does it matter what religion they are, if they have any religion at all?

GEORGE VERLEY: No. If you-- we just distributed 3,500 Thanksgiving baskets yesterday to families that had pre-signed up. And there was nothing tied to that. We put a little track in each basket as part of who we are, but we don't make them do anything special for that.

We'll serve dinner tomorrow at all of the high rises and at the Mission. And we'll say a prayer before we do the meal. But we don't check anybody's spiritual credentials to see if they apply for services or not. If the transit guys, when they come at night to stay free, go to chapel before, they get the free bed. And that's just part of who we've been for hundreds years.

GARY EICHTEN: That is the image that I think the Union Gospel Mission carries for a lot of people. In fact, your ad in the paper looking for donations features a fellow who looks like he's pretty much down on his luck. But your clientele has changed a lot over-- over years.

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, we-- I jokingly say that the Mission's image is beans and bums. And that's what the image was down on 7th Street when we were in 7th in Wacouta. And you drove by, and there were the older guys standing on the street.

But since we've moved and the economy and our world has changed, we see a lot younger client with a lot different needs than those older gentlemen. And then in the early '90s, we saw moms and kids on the street, which is absolutely unheard of, at least in my recollection, in Minnesota.

And the Missions' board of directors and its staff decided that we ought to step in and see if we can help that population also.

So it's been a whole change of services to add the up and out concept so that folk could become-- they can leave some of their cares and their troubles behind them. They can learn how to beat addiction, They can get an education. They can go out and get a job and make some real money and become taxpayers like the rest of us.

GARY EICHTEN: What happened? Why the big change? The influx of women and children on the streets, you said in your memory that had never really happened before. What do you suppose accounts for that?

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, I think in-- and I'm not an expert here. But I think in some ways, it reflects a breakdown in the family in America. Families always used to take care of families.

And it also reflects a really change in folks lifestyle. And I think the fortunate thing is we live in Minnesota, where it's a very caring community. And there are some other states that are not nearly as caring as Minnesota.

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hmm. Are the holidays particularly difficult for folks that you serve? Or are they a better time when at least they can-- they've got a place to go and they know people care and they've got some community and so on.

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, the holidays are tough. They always come at the end of the month, this Thanksgiving and Christmas. And folks whose means are meager, you always run out of money before the end of the month.

And if somebody doesn't do something special at Thanksgiving, it's another day. And you just wonder, where am I going to eat today? Where am I going to stay? It's just another day to get by. And we try to do something really special, as the other groups do, to provide a sit-down meal and volunteers who load up the plates with hot turkey and the whole works and bring them to your table and pour coffee and deliver milk if you want milk or cold water or whatever.

To try to make it something special, we have an organist and a pianist who come down and volunteer and give us some background music, and some folk who sing to make it a family dinner in our chapel or some a couple of hundred folk at a time, sit down and eat dinner.

And they don't have to leave when they're done. They can sit there and sit back and listen. They can fellowship. They can raise their hand if that one plate wasn't enough.

And they can tell the volunteer they only want turkey this time or only one dressing or whatever to make it a special day because they are special days in most families' lives. And the folk in the street, sometimes it's not a special day.

GARY EICHTEN: To people when they first come to the mission, are many times, they're kind of embarrassed and ashamed to be there or the-- what's they're-- are they just so happy to get any kind of help they can that?

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, sometimes-- sometimes there's some embarrassment. And I always tell folk that nobody ever started out as a goal in life to wind up living in the men's dormitory at the Mission or living at the recovery center.

No alcoholic ever, when he took his first drink, said, I think my goal is to become a full-fledged drunk and wind up on the streets and lose my home and my family and everything, my dignity, the whole works. So there's some of that involved.

And signing up families for Thanksgiving baskets. Some of my staff were very sad. We're doing a thousand more-- we did a thousand more baskets this year than last year. And we had folk at the computer signing up saying, I'm a little embarrassed to go through this.

I've worked all my life and I've never had to ask for help before. And so how do I go through this? And fortunately, we have a group of really caring volunteers who put it together in a hurry, and it's not very complicated. Then you come back and pick up your basket.

You see them from all-- you see families bringing in sons or husbands. Santa's got an alcohol problem here. Wave your magic wand over his head. And you take a deep breath and say, unless the person wants to help. The guys don't get sober and put their lives together for anybody else but themselves because that's the only thing that makes it work.

GARY EICHTEN: George Verley is with us, executive director of the Union Gospel Mission. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call. 651-227-6000, 651-227-6000. Outside the Twin cities, 1-800-242-2828.

Mr. Verley, I could imagine once you got out of the service, I understand that's when you went to work for them. You could have done any number of things. Why is it that you decided to go to work for the Union Gospel Mission? I can't imagine you've gotten rich doing this.

GEORGE VERLEY: No, but on the other hand, I got a service I had-- service trained me to repair radios. And in 1957, when I got out, I started to look for a job doing that. But television was on the horizon. And they were looking for people to fix televisions.

And that was not something I had learned. And it was different than radio. And I showed up back at the Boys Club that I grew up in. And the director said, how'd you like to run the Boys Club that you grew up in?

Now, I was 21 years old, and that's pretty young for a Boys Club director. And I said, I think that's a wonderful idea. And I went to work at the Boys Club. And then I wound up going to camp that summer. And camp was a place that I loved.

I had grown up every summer at camp. And just started to do that as a job. And pretty soon, it just became an overwhelming kind of thing. I was happy helping people. And pretty soon, the years slipped by and I never it never dawned on me I was going to become a senior citizen there.

GARY EICHTEN: One year, you woke up and you'd been there 45 years.

GEORGE VERLEY: Yes. [LAUGHS]

GARY EICHTEN: Has it been a rewarding way to make a living? I would think part of this, it would-- from an outsider's point of view, it would look to be pretty darn depressing day after day after day, having to try to help folks who are really down and out.

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, but you stay around the same place long enough. We have a guy come in. And a guy came in Monday and said, Wednesday night, I get my recovery medallion. And it was part of your rehab program at Snail Lake that I joined.

And that's 29 years ago. I've had 29 years of sobriety, and you picked me up on Jackson Street at the old poodle dog bar at 1:30 in the morning when they're closed. And I haven't had a drink since.

Would you come and be part of that ceremony to give me my 29-year medallion and I'm going to bring my bride with me? He's retired.

GARY EICHTEN: Wow.

GEORGE VERLEY: Worked all his life after he finished that recovery program. And we had a reunion at our camp of kids who have come to camp and the Boys and Girls Clubs and hundreds of kids talking about the wonderful experience they've had because of the camping program.

GARY EICHTEN: Larry, quick question here.

CALLER: Hi. I know you like to keep things positive. And you can answer this any way you want. But I was wondering, since you've been in the field for so long, do you ever think about or-- for want of a better term, become bitter that the government of the United States has kind of abdicated its role in helping the needy and allocating more government funds to help organizations such as yourself and maybe some of the other organizations? And it seems like it's going even more so in that direction for the foreseeable future.

GEORGE VERLEY: OK. Well, I don't know if bitter is the right idea. We have not taken government funding, so we've never depended on them. We've seen an increased demand for services. But being a Christian organization, the government always wants you to put that aside. And we're not willing to do that because we think that's what makes a difference in people's lives.

GARY EICHTEN: Therese, your question, please.

THERESE (ON PHONE): Yes, I just wanted your opinion on my family was going to give some gifts to a family we know that is kind of down and out for Christmas. We were getting together some gift cards and some things to bring to them on Christmas.

And my sister wanted to go over their house as a family from one family to another on Christmas Eve and give her the stuff. But I wanted your opinion that some of us thought that it would be better to give that to her ahead of time so she maybe wouldn't be embarrassed and so she could have time to get gifts herself.

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, I think back as a little boy, my father was killed in an industrial accident. My mom was raising three little boys by her lonesome. And we lived up on rice and Aurora in just off of downtown Saint Paul.

And I remember the excitement of Christmas Eve when the church showed up with used toys for three little boys who didn't have any Christmas. It was wonderful.

And my mom, we were poor, but she kept the place shiny and it was clean. And we had clean clothes. But when you're going to somebody's house, it might be good to ask them the question, would they be embarrassed to have you there on Christmas Eve?

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hmm. Brian, your question?

BRIAN (ON PHONE): Yes, Mr. Verley, thank you for taking my question. What I wanted to ask was about volunteer opportunities. Specifically, do you accept volunteers for serving on Thanksgiving day dinners?

GEORGE VERLEY: Yes, but we are absolutely, as every other agency, overwhelmed with volunteers. We were full at the end of August with volunteers for Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's.

GARY EICHTEN: You're kidding? Way back in August?

GEORGE VERLEY: Oh, yes. Well, folk have learned over the years when they try to volunteer now, that everybody's full. And we tell them to call us next July. And we'll send them a letter outlining volunteer opportunities for the holidays.

But we use volunteers all year long. It's just that it becomes a special thing for families who want to serve on Thanksgiving day and actually tomorrow when we're serving dinner, we will, sometimes we have as many volunteers as we have clients.

But it's a wonderful time for families to come and to share. But there's limited space as our problem. But we do appreciate your wanting to volunteer. And any agency you're going to volunteer, I would love to have you. But you need to sign up earlier.

GARY EICHTEN: Do you have trouble getting enough volunteers during, I don't know. March, April, when you don't have the holidays to work with?

GEORGE VERLEY: Yes, it's not nearly as exciting to come in February and March and serve meals in our regular cafeteria as it is on Thanksgiving day or Christmas or New Year's day or Easter when there's all of the-- everybody's feeling good about the time of the year.

GARY EICHTEN: Paul, your comment, please?

PAUL ASHWOOD (ON PHONE): Hi, George. This is Paul Ashwood, voice from the past.

GEORGE VERLEY: Yes!

PAUL ASHWOOD (ON PHONE): And I just want to congratulate you first on your retirement. And I know you won't be quitting, in the sense of you'll always keep busy. But we were one of those families that volunteered on Thanksgiving.

And we had five kids in our family. And we would go down as a family. And fortunately, we also did music for people. And these were in the senior citizen high rises.

And it was just a joy. It became kind of a tradition for us over the years just to go down in the morning and do these dinners and everything. And it really gave our kids a great understanding of what we have and how other people are.

And it was just fun to see. I bring the kids in. They're 10 years old to 5 and start singing. And these eyes light up on these older people and the senior citizens. It was just wonderful. And I just thank you and Nancy and all those guys back then to helping us out that way.

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, I appreciate hearing from you, Paul. I get nervous when you talk about those older people. I am one of them suddenly.

GARY EICHTEN: [LAUGHS] Molly, your comment, please?

MOLLY HARRINGTON (ON PHONE): Hi, George. This is Molly Harrington, a voice from the past.

GEORGE VERLEY: [LAUGHS]

MOLLY HARRINGTON (ON PHONE): I just wanted to say I started work at the Mission at 12 years old. I spent very wonderful years at the Mission, at the camps, at the Boys and Girls Clubs. They sent me to high school at Minnehaha Academy. I've had a wonderful experience. And I'm a better person for it. And thank you very much.

GEORGE VERLEY: Oh, thanks for calling, Molly.

GARY EICHTEN: You always hear that people often get more than they give when they give. Is that true?

GEORGE VERLEY: Absolutely. My oldest son is in Detroit, and he is an engineer for Chrysler. And the first Thanksgiving he spent there with his family, he called me Thursday. He called me that night and said, the first Thanksgiving dinner I've ever eaten at home because our family was always at the Mission.

And he felt a little uncomfortable at noon in his house in Michigan, having Thanksgiving dinner and not being at the rescue mission.

GARY EICHTEN: For people who might want to help out, what should they do? It is too late to volunteer to serve meals tomorrow, you said. But get in touch with you after the holidays?

GEORGE VERLEY: Yes, after. Our volunteer coordinator is just snowed right now. But do call us after the holidays. And then she'd be glad to send out a list of volunteer opportunities that range from serving food to helping in our dental clinic to correcting papers that our Learning Center or being a mentor or being a volunteer to do job interviews, mock job interviews for folks who are going to work, all kinds of things.

GARY EICHTEN: George Verley, thank you for coming in today. Have a happy Thanksgiving and good luck if you, in fact, retire.

GEORGE VERLEY: Well, thank you very much. It's my privilege to have been here. Thanks for the time.

GARY EICHTEN: [CHUCKLES] George Verley, the executive director of the Union Gospel Mission, joining us for this last segment of our Midday program. Gary Eichten here. Thanks for tuning in. Hope you can join us tomorrow.

John Berge will be along with this year's edition of the "Giving Thanks Specials" that he's been putting together. Also, Stephanie Curtis, the movie maven, will be here to talk about holiday movie releases. That's tomorrow on Midday.

SPEAKER 2: Programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by KARE 11 News, offering local TV news with a history of national news and photojournalism awards. KARE 11 News, telling the stories of our communities, weather news, and more available on KARE11.com.

STEPHANIE CURTIS: I'm Stephanie Curtis. Enron collapsed one year ago. This week on Sound Money, we'll examine how the scandal changed the way we think about investing our money, Saturday morning at 10:00 and Sunday evening at 5:00 on Minnesota Public Radio.

GARY EICHTEN: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a cloudy sky. It's 25 degrees at KNOW FM 91.1. Minneapolis and Saint Paul, cloudy through the afternoon with a high reach in the upper 20s. Partly cloudy skies are forecast for tonight with a low in the upper teens. And then tomorrow on Thanksgiving day, partly cloudy. A little warmer tomorrow with a high near 40 degrees. It's 1 o'clock.