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GARY EICHTEN: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. Partly cloudy sky, one degree above the windchill, eight below at KNOW-FM 91.1 Minneapolis and Saint Paul. Sunny and chilly all afternoon with a high, maybe reaching 10 above. Tonight, cloudy with some flurries, low 0 to 5 below 0. Tomorrow, more flurries with a high, again, near 10 above.

KORVA COLEMAN: From NPR News in Washington, I'm Korva Coleman. Democratic presidential candidate, Al Gore is returning to the Florida Supreme Court. NPR's Melissa Block is following his case in Tallahassee.

MELISSA BLOCK: The Supreme Court has said it will hear oral arguments on Thursday at 10:00 in the morning. 30 minutes per side, so one hour of arguments. This is the appeal that's been filed by Vice President Gore seeking to overturn a lower court's decision yesterday, that judge said, "No, you cannot have the manual recounts you are requesting." They are appealing to the Florida Supreme Court, and the court will hear arguments on that.

KORVA COLEMAN: The Florida Supreme Court must also consider another case. It's the case the US Supreme Court booted back to them yesterday. The US Supreme Court asked the Florida justices to explain why they decided to let some manual recounts in Florida go ahead.

Vice presidential candidate Dick Cheney was greeted warmly by fellow Republicans today. He was on Capitol Hill. He discussed transition efforts for a possible Bush administration. NPR's Pam Fessler reports.

PAM FESSLER: Cheney spoke this morning with House Republicans who said they were cautiously optimistic that he would be the next vice president. Cheney talked about what steps the Bush campaign is taking to prepare for the presidency, especially now that it's won several victories in court.

DICK CHENEY: Hopefully, we will be able to get on in fairly short order with the business of preparing for governing. And the transition is up and running and operational now. And we look forward to working with members of Congress of both parties.

PAM FESSLER: Cheney and other Republicans say it's crucial for a Bush administration to work with Democrats on Capitol Hill if anything is to be accomplished next year. Pam Fessler, NPR news, the Capitol.

KORVA COLEMAN: South Africans voted today in local elections. These are the first local multiracial elections since apartheid was overthrown. NPR's Kenneth Walker reports.

KENNETH WALKER: Turnout was low throughout most of South Africa as voters elected municipal office holders. The new municipalities are the result of merging mainly white towns with surrounding black townships. The move is seen as another step toward ending the effects of apartheid in that tax revenue, and government services would be more widely distributed. The elections are also seen as a referendum on the African National Congress government of President Thabo Mbeki.

An alliance of opposition parties has been exploiting rising Black disenchantment with the ANC, and voter surveys show it running neck and neck with the ruling party in most metropolitan areas. Voting was mostly peaceful, and results were expected to be announced on Wednesday. Kenneth walker, NPR News, Johannesburg.

KORVA COLEMAN: Two astronauts are spacewalking. They're installing solar wings on the International Space Station. Carlos Noriega and Joe Tanner of the Endeavor's Shuttle are hooking up electrical connections so solar power can spread throughout the station.

On Wall Street, the Dow is up 261 points at 10,842. The NASDAQ is up 190. This is NPR.

SPEAKER 1: Support for NPR comes from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and the Horace W Goldsmith Foundation for support of the NPR endowment, helping to ensure NPR's financial future.

GRETA CUNNINGHAM: With news from Minnesota Public Radio, I'm Greta Cunningham. The company that incorrectly scored thousands of basic skills tests for Minnesota students is defending itself in court today. Attorneys for National Computer Systems says it wants to quickly and economically pay claims by students affected by the testing error. NCS has offered a $1,000 tuition voucher to some students, but attorneys representing students who are suing NCS say the company should be held accountable for neglect and emotional distress.

The State Canvassing Board has certified DFLer Nora Slawik of Maplewood, the winner over Republican Representative Jim Seifert of Woodbury in the last Minnesota House race to be determined. A recount last week gave Slawik 79 more votes than Seifert. During the recount, election officials discovered an envelope of 34 ballots from Maplewood that apparently weren't counted on election night. Secretary of State Mary Kiffmeyer says recounts both here and in Florida have pointed out the need for better training of election judges and for voters to take responsibility for casting an accurate ballot.

MARY KIFFMEYER: I'm hoping that, whether it's the voters or the election judges, that everybody along the way will pay just a little more attention to the explanation of the judges, to their ballots and a variety of the way. And that's good news indeed.

GRETA CUNNINGHAM: The district 57A recount also found write-in votes for Viking coach Dennis Green and Casper, the Friendly Ghost. Former President George Bush is recovering after undergoing hip replacement surgery at the Mayo Clinic. The clinic says surgery to replace the 76-year-old former president's left hip went well. Bush is expected to be hospitalized for five days.

Checking the forecast for the state of Minnesota today, sunshine is in the forecast and cold temperatures statewide, high temperatures only reaching the single digits. Tonight, there is a chance of light snow in the Northeast, partly cloudy skies in the Southwest. Low temperatures tonight ranging from 20 below 0 in the Northeast to five above in the Southwest.

And for Wednesday, mostly cloudy skies statewide with flurries possible. High temperatures ranging from 5 above in the East to around 20 in the Southwest. Looking at the extended forecast for Thursday, there is a chance of snow with lows ranging in the single digits above 0 in the Northeast to the teens in the South. High temperatures on Thursday near 20 to 30 degrees.

Checking current conditions around the region, Duluth reports sunshine, a temperature of two below zero. Skies are clear in Rochester, a temperature of 1 above. Saint Cloud reports sunny skies and two below zero.

And in the Twin Cities at this hour, report of sunny skies, a temperature of 1 above zero. That's a news update from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Greta Cunningham. Programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by the Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra with Bill Eddins and the James Sewell Ballet performing Menotti's "Amahl and the Night Visitors." Performance is at the Ordway December 8 and 9, tickets 651-291-1144.

GARY EICHTEN: Seven minutes now past 12 o'clock.

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Good afternoon, and welcome back to Midday in Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary Eichten. He's been called one of the last liberal Roman Catholic bishops. Our Voices of Minnesota series continues this month with the reflections of a man who has served Southern Minnesota for a quarter of a century as the Bishop of New Ulm.

Raymond Lucker, who retired last month, is a Saint Paul native who spent his years as a priest speaking out on a wide range of current issues, many of them controversial issues, things like wealth and power, nuclear weapons and military spending, equal rights for women, married clergy, Catholic Church reforms, the list goes on. Well, Bishop Lucker talked with Minnesota Public Radio's All Things Considered host Lorna Benson about those issues and more in a recent conversation that they had. And today we're going to listen in. Bishop Lucker told Lorna how he decided to become a priest in the first place.

RAYMOND LUCKER: I was only 13 years old. And I was canning tomatoes with my mother. And we were in the basement. And she asked me, "Did you ever think of becoming a priest?"

And I don't know what I answered. But that night my father died suddenly. So we had the wake in our home. We lived on the East side in Saint Paul. We had the wake in our home two nights, two days.

Then we are driving out to the funeral out at Guardian Angels Church on the Hudson Road, and I said to my mother-- so I must have been thinking about this for two days. I said, "I suppose this means that I won't be able to study to be a priest." Somehow I had the idea that you had-- we were a poor family, and I thought we wouldn't be able to afford it or something like that.

And there was a priest, another friend of the family in the car going out to the cemetery, and he said, "Well, don't worry, there are scholarships and so forth." So it was just like that. And that question got me thinking, and I never thought of anything else that I should ever do except become a priest.

LORNA BENSON: Now, do you recall what it was that intrigued you about it?

RAYMOND LUCKER: Well, we had priests in our family as friends. I was a member of Sacred Heart Parish on the East side. We have good priests there, Franciscan priests. I grew up in a family of Catholic people, all faith-filled people.

And I think it was considered to be a great privilege for a family to have a priest in their family. But even apart from that, I always wanted to be able to serve other people. And I was attracted to it. And I never turned back. Never once in my life did I ever think that I should be something else.

LORNA BENSON: How has it changed the view of priesthood as a profession?

RAYMOND LUCKER: Well, when I was first ordained, that's 1952, I considered myself-- well, no, I don't know if I thought of myself at that time, but I was very conservative. I was a member of the clerical group. A father could do no wrong. We had all the answers. We had all the questions.

And it was a very wonderful experience. I mean, these people were very receptive. And we had Catholic schools, and we had wonderful organizations and we had all the liturgies and all that. Well, then I was deeply touched by the Second Vatican Council.

I was in Rome during the Council for two years. I was doing graduate study there. And during that time, I went through a major conversion that all of a sudden my faith was no longer just something in my head.

I always believed all the teachings of the church and observe the practices of the church, and I still do. But somehow my faith became much more personal. My relationship with the lord, my relationship with Jesus Christ was much more of a loving, personal companionship friend.

And then the Second Vatican Council was going on, and they were calling for a renewal of the Catholic Church, calling for a reform or reforms in the Catholic Church. And I said, "What are you talking about? We've been fighting Reformation for 350 years, and now you're saying we got to be reformed." And that just touched me.

And I said, there are all kinds of things that we've been doing that just don't make sense, that we need to change our way of doing things. We need to be much more open to the concerns of and the problems in the world around us and not be closed in just on ourselves. And so we had to be much more concerned about justice in the world, peace in the world, justice in our own church.

We had to be much more open to women, to the involvement of the laity in the life of the church, to reaching out to people of color, to touching people who were Native Indigenous peoples, et cetera. And then we had to do a lot of things to change ourselves within. If we were going to be a credible witness in the world, then we had to do some changes ourselves. So that really touched me. And I found, oh, man, that-- so my whole life really changed at that time.

LORNA BENSON: And you never really looked back. I mean, you've continued this--

RAYMOND LUCKER: No, I continue to believe that and to follow that. So at the same time, I still consider myself as a very traditional person, a very traditional member of the Catholic Church. I mean, the central teachings of my church are very important to me. And the history and the way in which the church has developed over the years, that's still very important to me.

But I see that these central teachings have to be applied to modern situations. So, for example, if we really believe that Jesus taught us to forgive our enemies, to turn the other cheek, to be nonviolent in our dealing with others, then we have to look at our defense spending and say, wait a minute, our defense spending is way out of whack. And it would be much better to use some of that money, maybe a good part of that money for education, for alleviating poverty in the world, for reaching out to people who are struggling, you know, et cetera.

And if we really believe that every single person is equal, which we teach, then we have to say, well, then how about our own practice about the way in which women have been excluded from decision making processes in the church for centuries. We've got to change that. Or if we say every single person is equal, then we can't say that people who are, let's say, Indigenous people in Guatemala-- we're very close to that because we have a mission in Guatemala-- that we can't say that they can be treated as less than fully human, et cetera. So in other words, I really feel that I have a strong traditional belief, but at the same time, then I say, all right, we have to then be consistent in applying those teachings to the situations of today.

LORNA BENSON: Now, have your views ever gotten you in hot water?

RAYMOND LUCKER: Have I gotten in hot water? Not really. Not really. I mean, it's amazing. I will make statements on things, and I'll find that people will be very, very supportive.

Well, for example, a year or two ago I came out in favor of the ordination of married men, and I feel very strongly about that. I just think we have such a shortage of priests in the Catholic Church and so much so that we're not able to have enough priests to celebrate the Holy Mass in all of the parishes. Well, we believe that's central. I mean, the Eucharist is central for us.

We had married priests in the Catholic Church for 1,100 years, and we still have married priests in what we call the East in Eastern Europe and so forth. So you have a practice or a rule which can easily be changed which replaces a command of Jesus to participate in the bread of life, in the Holy Eucharist, which is so central to us. So I say, wait a minute, there's something wrong here.

So I've gotten into a little hot water because that isn't an official rule. We're not allowed to do that at this point. In the Western church, we still have a celibate clergy, but then we make exceptions.

So we have some men who have been ministers in, let's say, the Episcopal Church or in the Lutheran Church or the Methodist Church, they become Catholics, and then we allow them to serve as priests in the Catholic Church, even though they're married. So then we say, well, that's an exception. Well, fine, then let's have more exceptions. [LAUGHS]

LORNA BENSON: So is the marriage deterrent the biggest reason that you don't have enough priests?

RAYMOND LUCKER: No, I don't think so. I think there are a lot of other things. I mean, after all, young people today are very much attracted to professions and other occupations where they will have much better income, where there's a much better opportunity for the future. So I think if you go to a-- even though there's a lot of idealism among college students, and I think there's a growing amount of idealism, that is they want to work for Habitat for Humanity, they want to go to the far east, et cetera. But they're also in college.

So they can get a learn about a profession, which is going to give them security, which is going to give them the things that they want, et cetera. So that whole pressure to accumulate money, to accumulate things, to accumulate prestige, all that, well, that's a very strong attraction, too. It's very difficult to find a person who at 20 will say, I'm going to commit myself to the priesthood for life. I mean, that's a pretty demanding question.

So I think that there's, there's that, that pull of young people to other occupations. The fact that we have much smaller families-- see, I grew up in a family of six children. Well, it was a good thing for one of the members of a Catholic family in my day to become a priest. And it was very strongly supported.

Now, families tend to be more one or two children. And then the grandparents or the parents don't support their children in becoming priests because they say, we want to have grandchildren. So, you see, so they're all there. So there's societal things, there are personal things that also keep people from deciding to become priests.

But I think also the question of marriage, I talked to a lot of young men who are wonderful, wonderful people. And they say, I'd like to be a priest, but I don't want to live alone the rest of my life. So that's a big factor.

LORNA BENSON: How has the priest shortage affected you and other priests?

RAYMOND LUCKER: Well, in the Diocese of New Ulm, we have 82 parishes. We used to have 95. We closed 13 partly because we didn't have enough priests to provide leadership for all those communities.

But in the Diocese of New Ulm, we have all of these wonderful small communities in the small towns, in the rural areas, parishes made up of 100, 125 families. Children grow up knowing their faith from their parents and grandparents and uncles and aunts and cousins who are all part of the community. Those are wonderful, wonderful communities. And we'd like to have a priest in each one of those communities, like we've always done.

Now we can't do that. So now we have one priest who serves two of those places or three of them. Well, then that causes a lot of wear and tear. That means you not only have to have liturgies in each parish on weekends and during the week, you also have to visit the sick for all these communities.

You also have to be concerned with religious education and youth ministry, but also things like parish council meetings. You have three of those to meet, three finance councils, three committees for various other programs and stuff. So the administrative part becomes much more complicated. So we've then instituted in the Diocese of New Ulm a, what do you call it? A institution now it's not the right word.

We've started a program where we have non-ordained people who are in charge of parishes. So we have women who are in charge of parishes, married men who are in charge of parishes. They're not ordained, but they're wonderful leaders. And then the priests from the neighboring town comes for the mass and the sacraments. And that's enabled us to keep a lot of these parishes going and going.

So the priest shortage is a very serious thing for us. I would like, for example, to have two or three priests sent away every year for further study in theology and sacred scripture and other church sciences to build up the community, to build up the presbytery. We haven't been able to do that.

I'd like to be able to have more priests who are serving as chaplains at the state universities or the community colleges. We're not having been able to do that. It would be wonderful if we had a few more priests who would be available to teach in our high schools, to be present there. I think partly there's a kind of a endless cycle. You don't have enough priests to be in the high schools, and you don't have enough high school students that think about becoming priests because they don't have the contacts.

So there are all kinds of things that have happened to us because of the shortage of priests. Partly, for example, we have an aging clergy. You don't see just a lot of young men in the clergy. So the shortage touches us in many ways.

GARY EICHTEN: Raymond Lucker is the newly retired bishop of New Ulm. He spoke recently with Minnesota Public Radio's Lorna Benson as part of our Voices of Minnesota Series. And today, we are presenting that conversation here on our Midday program. Let's continue. Bishop Lucker says that he thinks the future of the Catholic Church will be very exciting.

RAYMOND LUCKER: There's just so much happening now. In the last 50 years, there has been an explosion of people who want to be active in the church than we never had years and years ago. In the old days, everything was done by the priests or by the sisters. Now we have in our little dioceses where we have 80,000 or 70,000 people, we have 3,000, 4,000 people who have volunteered to be religious education teachers. We have hundreds of people who are active in their parishes leading youth programs. We have all kinds of people who are active in the liturgy, in liturgy preparation, and reading the scriptures and bringing Holy Communion to the sick and forming various liturgy committees and so forth.

LORNA BENSON: Why do you suppose that is?

RAYMOND LUCKER: I think that people have caught on to the call of the Second Vatican Council, which said that every single member of the church is called to participate in the life and ministry of the church. And they've responded to it. And so that's why we have so much excitement.

No, we also have a lot of-- it's too strong to say polarization, but certainly differences of opinion. One group wants to move faster in a renewal effort. Others want to cling to what they've been comfortable with 30, 40, 50 years ago. They say, why don't we go back to what we did so well in the '40s and '50s when everything was fine and we were growing and we were doing great? Why don't we go back where it was comfortable?

So we have tensions. We have a lot of differences of opinion. Typically in the Catholic church, when we have differences of opinion, we tend not to split. We tend to stay in the same family and say, this is my church, and I'm going to stick with it, but have differences.

LORNA BENSON: These days?

RAYMOND LUCKER: These days, whereas it used to be that you'd have differences and then people broke away and formed a new church. So now I think there's much more. So we have a, let's say, well, let's put it this way, there are many Catholics that differ from one another more usually on the application of teachings or about the practice or that kind of thing, not on central things.

There's much more difference among Catholics than there is, let's say, between some Catholics and some Lutherans. There's a different way of looking at things. And so we have a lot of that in the Catholic Church.

LORNA BENSON: I want to talk about the Pope for a moment. He recently issued a statement regarding the legitimacy of other Christian faiths.

RAYMOND LUCKER: Yes.

LORNA BENSON: And I wonder if you might explain what he said and how you view the Vatican stand on this issue.

RAYMOND LUCKER: It's very difficult to do that in a short time. But I would say it this way, we really believe that we are the true church, the true Christian church. And we would hope that everybody would become Catholic. So that's our belief.

Now, I would think that a good Lutheran would say the same thing. They would say, we believe that after all, the Catholic Church was in need of reform. We're part of the reforming church. We think this is the way to go. So I think each group would feel very strongly about the fact that the way we're going is the right way.

So then the question is, how do you express that? Now, there were theologians and other people, let's say, during the '40s and '50s who so emphasized the uniqueness of the Roman Catholic Church, that they said that unless you're a Roman Catholic, you can't go to heaven. Well, that position was condemned officially by the people in Rome, by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and said, no, people can go.

They follow their consciences. They do what they know is what God is calling them to do. And they then, whether they know it or not, are somehow embraced by and incorporated by the love of Christ.

The question is then, how do you express that? How do you say that we are unique, we are special without then excluding other people? So on the Second Vatican Council, the bishops at that council struggled with that issue. So we say the Church of Jesus Christ is what we believe is the true church, is the true religion, and we invite all others to become members of this church.

Then the question is, well, what about all the different denominations? Well, we said the Church of Jesus Christ, the body of Jesus Christ, is found in the Catholic Church, but it's also found elsewhere. And so we need to reach out to people elsewhere and to work towards Christian unity, to work for a reunion of churches or at least some way where we can work together much more. So that really opened up the Second Vatican Council.

Now, this recent document, I think-- my own personal opinion-- had a tone about it that almost it sounded so exclusive that it was offensive to people of other Christian denominations. So I've met with the Lutheran bishops of the state of Minnesota. I've met with the other church leaders of the Presbyterian Church of the Episcopal Church, and they found that statement offensive just the way it was said. So I think it caused a problem. It caused some problems for us.

I think what was said was basically what we believe, but it just wasn't well done, in my opinion. I think the effort was to talk about that that document came out to talk about the uniqueness of Christ and was written more for people who were living in India, Sri Lanka, other places where there was some openness with buddhists, with other far Eastern religions. And they wanted to stress the fact that for us, the central mystery of our faith is around Christ. So anyhow, so I think that document has caused us some problems, frankly.

LORNA BENSON: Do you think the Vatican is fairly conservative?

RAYMOND LUCKER: Yes, and they're supposed to be. I think the people in a world church, you tend to be-- you cling to what is tried and true. And you cling to the past, and you cling to your past formulations.

In order to change, you have to have a kind of a critical mass of people who would say, look, we've got to do this. And so that's happened over the course of the centuries. And even in the course, especially in the last 50 years, we have made incredible changes led by church leadership. But people in the Vatican are-- it's a bureaucracy that has been going for 500, 600 years.

It tends to get entrenched. It tends to cling to what we know is tried and true. And so there's bound to be a traditional or stress on the traditional that come out of those kinds of offices.

Then on the other hand, you have people across the world living Catholic faith in various different cultural backgrounds and different cultural situations. And you say, well, yes, but the way you say it in this document doesn't quite fit us. We've got to do it this way, you see? So there's where the tension comes in.

I've said and maybe this is a little rash, but I've said in different public speeches that I believe that the Roman curia, that is the bureaucracy in Rome can be and is at times an obstacle to the renewal of the church. Now, I'm not the only one who ever said that. I mean, a lot of other people have said that over the years. It's just that you get so connected with and so entrenched with a way of doing things that you're not able to see other ways of doing things.

And then the result is then you tend to talk to only those people that agree with you. Instead of bringing in, let's say, a group of theologians from around the world who would have different theological perspectives, they tend to bring in ones just of one side. And they say, well, we've consulted.

Well, yeah, but see, you have to be open. I really believe in being open and what should I say? Consult broadly. I think that's just so important.

LORNA BENSON: Ultimately, what might change those attitudes at the Vatican?

RAYMOND LUCKER: Well, for example, notice right before our eyes, we're changing our position on capital punishment. For centuries, we thought or we taught that it was legitimate for a state or a country to impose capital punishment out of defense of its citizens. More and more, we're seeing that exercising the death penalty and exacting death for death or death for serious crimes just isn't a good idea. And so right before our eyes, we're now getting closer and closer to the point where we're ready to say the death penalty is wrong.

Now, the Holy Father on frequent occasions has said it can be only used in very rare instances. And now he has the practice of getting in touch with the governor every time just before someone is about to be executed and plea for a stay or for a pardon or something. Now so that's changing. Now, that's a long-held teaching.

Well, we have changed on many, many issues over the years. For example, years ago, centuries ago, we thought that it was OK to use torture to encourage people to not be heretics, and we had the inquisition. Now we would say today that was awful. And matter of fact, the Holy Father a year ago in pleading for forgiveness on behalf of the church for things that we did wrong in the past, like using force against people who believed something different than that than we believed or, let's say, our treatment of Galileo or for the way in which we've dealt with women or the way in which we have supported colonial powers as they exploited the native peoples, we have to be sorry for that.

We have to be sorry for what we've done as a church in the past to bring about or to be part of the disunity of Christian churches. We have to be sorry for what we've done over the years in anti-Semitism. So we realized that even though we believe that the Catholic Church is founded by Jesus Christ, it is divine in foundation and in core, nevertheless, it's made up of human beings. And we can make mistakes.

Not only we, meaning the ordinary folks, but church leaders. Bishops make mistakes. Popes make mistakes. Bishops sin. Popes sin. Let's say we acknowledge that, and we're sorry for that.

And now we begin again. So that's amazing. So there are changes taking place right before our eyes that have come out right at the top leadership of the church. At the same time, we tend to cling to the past.

LORNA BENSON: But in these times, can the church afford to be so slow in making changes?

RAYMOND LUCKER: Well, probably not. On the other hand, I think, you have to face the fact that we've been around for a couple thousand years, and so we've become very much entrenched in certain positions, and they do change slowly. They do change slowly.

I've been very forthright in calling for the total equality of women in the church. Well, when for centuries, imagine this was a cultural thing. But for centuries, we accepted the cultural position that women were simply, by their very nature, unequal. So they couldn't vote.

They couldn't own property. They couldn't be leaders in society or in the church. And that was a cultural thing that got into our organization. Now, we don't believe that. We believe that every single human being is equal, but we still have with us remnants of that. And it's difficult for us to change into a new way of doing things.

LORNA BENSON: What do you think is the most important issue facing the Catholic Church right now?

RAYMOND LUCKER: Oh, boy, that's a tough one. I would say the most important issue facing the Catholic Church now and, let's say, from the very beginning is the constant call for our renewal in our own hearts and in our relationships with the Lord. Now, that's a very vague kind of thing.

But there are so many people, for example, I'm not blaming them, I'm just saying, in fact, there are so many people who say oh, yeah, I'm a Catholic, but they're not convinced. They're not committed. They don't really believe or they don't really act as though they really believe they are members of the body of Christ.

Therefore, they are to be people who bring God with them in their daily life, who bring Jesus with them into their family, into their relationships, into their business, into society. So, I think, we're always called to an inner renewal. And I think we are just as seriously called to that today as people were through the centuries.

So you say, if you're really active, if you're really a member of the church, then that means that you're there has to be ongoing and continual conversion. Now that you say, well, that always faces the church. But I think that's still rock bottom, still central. Now you can take other things.

You can take organizational things. You can take structural things. Well, fine, I think, that's always important, but not as important as the need for us to continually grow in faith and grow in our relationship with the God that we proclaim. We have to be consistent with what we say we are. And so that means we always need to be open to the gift of God and always be open to responding to God's gifts in our lives.

LORNA BENSON: How did being stationed in New Ulm affect your thinking, shape your thinking as a bishop?

RAYMOND LUCKER: In several ways. The diocese of New Ulm, as I said before, is made up of all of these wonderful small communities. Over 25 years, I have visited those communities many, many times. And I suppose that I personally have touched and have shaken hands with probably 90% of those people. So there's a very personal relationship that results.

When you're in a larger community like the Twin Cities and where the archbishop is the archbishop over something like 700,000 people, well, obviously, you're just not going to have the same personal relationship with people there. I have a very close relationship also with the priests of the diocese and with the pastoral leaders of the diocese. I suppose the thing that has touched me more than anything else is our relationship with a community in Guatemala.

We have what we call a Mission in Guatemala, but it's a very close relationship. I go there every year. We have students by the dozens who go down there and spend a week, two weeks, a year, two years as volunteers. We have come to see what happens when a few people own all of the land, when a few people own all of the productive resources in one country, when a few people own all of the means of wealth and all that kind of thing, and the rest of the people are exploited. It really touches us.

And especially since the issues are around land, so you have people who have no land, and so they're totally dependent. Then they're easily exploited. And then that touches us in New Ulm because we become much more aware of the sacredness of the land that we have all around us, that rich, productive farmland.

And we're going the same way. We're gradually moving in the direction where fewer and fewer people own more and more of the land and more and more of the productive wealth in this country. And so we have been reminded of the importance then of sustainable agriculture, of ecology, of love for the Earth and the soil and the air and the water.

And so we then look at the river going through the Diocese of New Ulm, the Minnesota River, which has become one of the most polluted rivers that touches the Mississippi River. It's filled with agricultural runoff and agricultural chemicals and so forth. So you don't dare eat the fish. Well, that's then something's got to happen to that.

So our relationship with Guatemala has really had an impact on my life, and it has an impact on thousands of other people who, because of their personal connection with those people in the third-world country, have come to realize how their way of life has touched our way of life. And because we consume so much of this world's resources, there are many, many other people across the world who are deprived. So that helps us to be more aware of things that we need to change in our lives.

LORNA BENSON: What crises facing your parishioners have affected you the most?

RAYMOND LUCKER: Well, we've had the farm crisis of the mid '80s was a major impact, a major impact on my life where farmland prices went way down, the value of farms went down, a lot of people lost their farms. Fewer and fewer people than were able to buy those farms and to continue. That was a major crisis that hit all of us. Then we've had several other natural disasters, like tornadoes, floods, which have brought people together.

Overall, I would say that the most critical issue that we face as a church is the shortage of clergy. Even though we have a wonderful group of young men who are studying for the priesthood for the diocese, and it's a large group, nevertheless, I think in the long run, that's going to continue to cause a serious problems. So those are a couple of the issues that I would say are critical for us.

LORNA BENSON: You retired officially. What will you do now?

RAYMOND LUCKER: Well, I've always been a teacher. I've always been interested in research. So I'm going to continue to do a little of that. I'm going to do a lot of research at the Minnesota Historical Society, family history, also research on the life of an early bishop of Saint Paul that I had begun many, many years ago as a master's dissertation. But I've got tons of research, but I want to do kind of pull that together a little bit more.

And then I want to do some teaching, probably at Saint Catherine's, where I've taught in recent summers and Saint John's University. So my specialized training was in theology. And so I want to continue to do something in that field.

Well, then I have a garden. I like to cross country ski. I like to do some carpentry. [LAUGHS] I have a huge extended family. I have five brothers and sisters and 32 nephews and nieces and 45 or 48 now, I guess, grand nephews and nieces.

And most of them live in the Twin city area. So I want to keep in touch with the extended family and other cousins and friends that I grew up with. So I'll have plenty to do.

GARY EICHTEN: That was the newly retired bishop of New Ulm, Raymond Lucker, Saint Paul native who served the New Ulm diocese for a quarter of a century. Bishop Lucker spoke recently with Minnesota Public Radio's All Things Considered host Laura Benson as part of our Voices of Minnesota Series. Bishop Lucker is 73 years old.

16 minutes now before 1:00. This is Midday, coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio. Rabbi Bernard Raskas has been wrestling with thorny questions of politics and faith for the past 50 years as a rabbi at Saint Paul's Temple of Aaron Congregation and as a scholar and a teacher. In October, you might recall, he was designated Rabbi Laureate by his temple, honoring him as only the second rabbi in the nation to serve a congregation for 50 years. Minnesota Public Radio's Amy Radil spoke with Rabbi Raskas at the time and filed this report.

AMY RADIL: Raskas and his wife, Leah spend most of each year in their Highland Park apartment, an airy place overflowing with their vibrant art collection. A few months each summer are spent in Jerusalem. Raskas still has an office at the Temple of Aaron Synagogue, where he served for the past 50 years.

But these days, he's also found wearing jeans and a T-shirt, teaching religious studies on the campus of Macalester College. Throughout his long career, Raskas says he's always spent time studying and writing, drawing connections between history and current issues, from civil rights and Vietnam to present-day politics in the Middle East. Raskas says he made his beliefs known in sermons and writings and feared staying out of tough issues more than jumping into them.

BERNARD RASKAS: They are partisan, but I believe a person is not neutral. And the hottest places in hell are reserved for people who are neutral. Eventually, we'll be judged on what we did or we didn't do when we should have done.

AMY RADIL: Raskas is sharply critical of the death penalty and modern day fundamentalism. He's more open ended on religious intermarriage and whether Jews should listen to Wagner. He says he's been able to wade into these controversies without dividing his congregation by putting these issues aside when people needed his help. Raskas says the key to longevity as a rabbi is focusing on the human needs of his congregation when it comes to being a counselor, attending the sick and dying, or celebrating weddings and births.

BERNARD RASKAS: If a person needed me, a human being or a member of the congregation, it didn't matter whether we agreed or disagreed. They needed me, and so I was there to answer their needs. When it came to dealing with people, it didn't matter. So I was always ready to serve.

AMY RADIL: Raskas's collected articles and columns from the Minneapolis Star Tribune, the St. Paul Pioneer Press, and national Jewish publications have been collected in a new book entitled Seasons of the Mind, published by Lerner Publications in Minneapolis. University of Minnesota President Mark Yudof and US Senator Paul Wellstone offered their endorsements on the back cover of the book, while former Vice President Walter Mondale calls Raskas, the Jewish Garrison Keillor. The publisher, Adam Lerner, says he hopes Raskas's wide-ranging subject matter will give the book broad appeal.

ADAM LERNER: Bernie's not only spiritual, but he's also very pragmatic. And so, I think, it's a book of ideas. And you don't have to be Jewish necessarily to appreciate it or religious to appreciate it. It's just his ruminations on what he's seen in his many years.

AMY RADIL: Raskas says the biggest change he's seen in the attitudes of his congregation members over the years is a move toward what he calls privatization of religion, where the individual has become more important than the group. He says people today want Judaism to function as a resource in their spiritual journey rather than a set of absolutes.

BERNARD RASKAS: They don't see the rules as guiding them, but as restricting them. And so I feel that there is a different expectation from the synagogue. And it's less guidance, and more inspiration.

AMY RADIL: But Raskas is far from disapproving of these changes. He champions this freedom of thought, which he says, allows the faith to grow and change over the rules and rigidity he sees linked to fundamentalism. In time, he says, both parts of the cycle will come into play, and extremes will eventually write themselves. I'm Amy Radil, Minnesota Public Radio.

GARY EICHTEN: Healing is part of the religious tradition from ancient rites of early human history, through the miracles described in the Bible, to the melodrama of contemporary televangelists. Recent medical research indicates that faith can, in fact, affect physical healing, and a growing number of people may be turning to a higher power for healing. To conclude this hour of Midday, a report on that subject from Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Gunderson.

DAN GUNDERSON: It's 5:30 on a Wednesday evening. About a dozen people gather at the front of the sanctuary at Triumph Lutheran Brethren Church in Moorhead.

JEFF SEAVER: Tonight, we are going to be seeking the Lord for healing for Jewel.

DAN GUNDERSON: Pastor Jeff Seaver stands at the altar rail, holding a Bible and a small bottle of olive oil. A slender man with close-cropped red hair and an engaging smile, he's presided over many of these healing ceremonies. Jewel, an elderly woman with advanced stage melanoma, kneels before him. Her husband stands close by. Six church elders gather around and lay their hands on the woman's head and shoulders as Pastor Seaver marks a cross on her forehead with oil.

JEFF SEAVER: Jewel, I anoint you in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

DAN GUNDERSON: The emotion in the room is palpable, and tears begin to flow as the elders each pray.

SPEAKER 2: We ask now, again, for grace and mercy and for healing for the melanoma to leave the body and go away. We pray for that, Father.

DAN GUNDERSON: The ceremony lasts only a few minutes and ends quietly with hugs and tears as friends and family gather around Jewel.

[CHATTER]

There's been no lightning bolt, no claim of a miracle. Jewel says, she doesn't know if she will be healed. She's continuing to search for a medical cure with her doctors, but she says she's at peace now that she's put her trust in God.

JEWEL: It's wonderful, really, to be brought to the Lord, and he's right before me. And to know that people are praying, it's overwhelming.

DAN GUNDERSON: Back in his office, Pastor Jeff Seaver says he's a firm believer in the power of faith, but he says he's careful not to make promises for a God whose will he cannot know. He says that can lead to crushing disappointment for people who feel if they are not healed, it's somehow their fault. Sometimes, he says, healing happens when people die and go on to heaven.

He says that's the ultimate healing for Christians. But the pastor says he's seen cases where cancerous tumors disappeared between doctor's visits. Maybe there's an unknown medical explanation, he says, but maybe it was something else, the power of faith.

JEFF SEAVER: I believe that miracles have happened. I haven't experienced them in the made-for-television excitement.

DAN GUNDERSON: When Jeff Seaver presides over healing ceremonies, he has an empathy for those involved that comes from personal experience. When one of his children was debilitated by an illness doctors could not identify, his faith was tested.

JEFF SEAVER: I value that time in our lives when I felt pretty helpless and felt the pain of one of my little ones suffering and realized that my prayers were not a religious exercise at that time, but actually the cries of my heart and my wife's heart on behalf of one that we loved to the one that we knew loved her, too, and really putting her in his hands.

DAN GUNDERSON: His daughter recovered, and Seaver is convinced faith and prayer played a role.

["CANTICLE OF THE TURNING" PLAYING] My soul cries out with a joyful shout that the God of.

SPEAKER 3: With the same faith and trust that the Blessed Mother possessed, we now present to God our prayers and petitions.

DAN GUNDERSON: Nuns gather for evening Vespers in a small chapel at the presentation prayer center in Fargo. People in crisis often come here to spend time in meditation and prayer. And the sisters daily offer intercessory prayer for a multitude of requests. Sister Francine Janousek says, over the years, she's seen a sort of healing process happen time after time.

FRANCINE JANOUSEK: Very often, the physical healing follows on the heels of somebody getting their life in order or dealing with some issues that have been in their life.

DAN GUNDERSON: That observation may have a corollary in medical research. The Mind Body Institute at Harvard Medical School says 60% to 90% of doctor visits in the United States are stress related. The institute is researching the use of relaxation techniques to treat a variety of ailments.

Sister Francine says a key part of healing is accepting the will of a higher power. She says people who reach that level of faith report an almost universal feeling of peace and well-being. Sister Francine says more people are seeking help from the spiritual realm. But she says dependence on faith is sometimes difficult for people in an affluent society.

SPEAKER 4: Because in many ways we don't need to be so terribly dependent on providence, but we can be dependent on ourselves because we have so much available to us, and also there's so much-- we live in, such a technological society that can do practically anything. I mean, pretty soon, we'll be growing organs for people's bodies. And what we'll never be able to do is grow that spirit.

DAN GUNDERSON: Not all those seeking healing through spirituality are doing it through mainstream religions.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Soft music fills a tiny candlelit alcove in the spirit room above a storefront in downtown Fargo. Crammed into the small space is a padded massage table and a very tall, conservatively-dressed woman. The patient removes their shoes and lies on the table. Susan Ekberg closes her eyes and begins another session of Reiki.

SUSAN EKBERG: We thank you yet again in advance for all of your wisdom and information and knowledge that you may impart to us so that we may better understand ourselves and the world that we're living in. Thy will be done.

DAN GUNDERSON: The word Reiki comes from Japanese symbols for god and life force. Susan Ekberg moves her hands over a patient's body, sometimes touching, sometimes several inches away.

SUSAN EKBERG: As soon as my hands went out toward you, you've got a very bright sun energy, very bright yellow.

DAN GUNDERSON: As her hands move, she says, she feels the energy in the person's mind, spirit, and body and sees visions and hears voices. She keeps a running commentary through a typical hour-long session.

SUSAN EKBERG: So a good health at this time, perhaps a sore back, maybe a little stiffness down in your ankles, not a lot of fears.

DAN GUNDERSON: Ekberg says she does not magically heal people, but helps them understand how to be healed. She says healing happens from within.

SUSAN EKBERG: It has to start with the emotional healing or the physical healing won't come.

DAN GUNDERSON: Susan Ekberg says physical illness indicates a need for emotional, or spiritual healing. Reiki practitioners believe balance in intellect, spirit, and body will bring healing. But Susan Ekberg says faith is an essential part of that balance.

SUSAN EKBERG: You really need to have faith that there's some greater force out there that cares about you even and that knows that you're there.

DAN GUNDERSON: Those who practice faith-based healing believe strongly in its power, and practitioners say they see a growing number of people seeking guidance from a higher power. Medical science is beginning to examine how the potential healing power of spirituality can be tapped. Dan Gunderson, Minnesota Public Radio, Moorhead.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, that concludes our Midday program for today focus on Voices of Minnesota Series and with Bishop Raymond Lucker, retiring bishop and Rabbi Bernard Raskas, a special report from Dan Gunderson on faith and healing. If you'd like to listen to this program again, it will be available on our website, minnesotapublicradio.org. Matter of fact, a full week's worth of Middays can be found at your leisure on our website. So check it out.

And if you hear a program, for example, that you'd simply like to hear again, or perhaps one that you know a friend might want to listen to but missed it, have them log on to minnesotapublicradio.org. You will, of course, also find our program that we had on 11:00 today on our website, our conversation with Governor Jesse Ventura. And two chances to hear that program, we'll be rebroadcasting the program at 9:00 tonight here on Minnesota Public Radio so you get a chance to hear from the governor. We touched on a whole range of issues today from the presidential recount all the way to ramp meters and the rest. So that's available at rebroadcast 9:00 tonight here on the radio or again on our website, minnesotapublicradio.org.

Catching up on some of the late news out of Florida, the Florida Supreme Court has agreed to hear Al Gore's appeal of yesterday's lower court ruling that upheld a Texas Governor, George W. Bush's statewide victory in Florida. A court spokesman, Craig Waters, said the court wants written papers submitted by noon tomorrow, and then the court will hear oral arguments in that case on Thursday morning.

Mr. Waters says the justices have allotted an hour for oral arguments on Thursday, 30 minutes for each side. He said the attorneys would be dealing with whether the court should even hear the case and the issues of the case. Gore's appeal was one of two election-related cases at Florida's Supreme Court, the other from the US Supreme Court, has requested clarification of the reasoning behind a state Supreme Court ruling last month that approved partial manual recounts beyond a deadline fixed in state law for the end of the vote counting in the presidential election.

The Bush and Gore legal teams already were operating under a 2:00 deadline today for submitting written arguments in that case. No timetable for oral arguments has been set in that case. Mr. Waters told reporters he had no information on whether the two cases would ultimately be combined.

And one other note, Joseph Lieberman today, Al Gore's running mate, said today there aren't many places to go after the Florida Supreme Court rules. Mr. Gore himself has been described by his spokesman as remaining resolute, determined, and focused. That does it for Midday today. Gary Eichten here. Thanks for tuning in.

SPEAKER 5: Programming on NPR is supported by Bockstruck Jewelers, featuring international watches by Rolex, Chopard, Ebel, TAG Heuer, and Bertolucci. Bockstruck, the jeweler to watch

GARY EICHTEN: Programming support also comes from the financial contributions of listeners like you. Become a member online at minnesotapublicradio.org.

CATHY WURZER: The Minnesota State college system names a new chancellor. I'm Cathy Wurzer. That story and the latest on the legal battle for the presidency tomorrow on Morning Edition from 4:00 to 9:00 on Minnesota Public Radio. KNOW-FM 91.1.

GARY EICHTEN: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. Sunny sky, 4 above, wind chill, 4 below at KNOW-FM 91.1 Minneapolis and Saint Paul. Sunny and cold all afternoon in the cities. It could hit 10 degrees above.

Tonight, cloudy with some flurries, pretty chilly. Overnight, low tonight, 0 to 5 below. And then tomorrow, essentially more of the same, cloudy skies with flurries high near 10 above.

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JUAN WILLIAMS: From NPR News in Washington. I'm Juan Williams. And this is Talk of the Nation. Al Gore's back is against the wall.