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GRETA CUNNINGHAM: Good afternoon. It's 12:04. From the Minnesota Public Radio newsroom, I'm Greta Cunningham.

The Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission has approved a new lease agreement with the Minnesota Twins that will keep the baseball team in Minneapolis for at least the next two years. The twins will also have the option of renewing the Metrodome lease in each of the following three years. After approving the lease agreement, commission members called the deal a short-term solution that leaves bigger questions about financing a baseball stadium unanswered.

The Commission's executive director, Bill Lester, described today's lease agreement as the gnat on the elephant.

BILL LESTER: Now we have to attack the elephant to deal with those broader issues of how we're going to keep professional sports in Minnesota and keep them not only solvent but with competitive teams.

GRETA CUNNINGHAM: The lease is part of an agreement that also establishes a 30-day period during which Twins' owner Carl Pohlad will consider offers from Minnesotans interested in buying the team.

A Minnesota Supreme Court ruling broadens the state's dram shop law. The law allows individuals to sue for damages resulting from the illegal sale of alcohol to another person. Minnesota Public Radio's Bill Catlin reports.

BILL CATLIN: The ruling stems from a suit brought by a woman whose fiance was severely injured in an alcohol-related accident the night before her wedding. The state's open-ended dram shop law says a spouse, child, parent, guardian, employer, or other person can sue for losses resulting from illegal sales of alcohol. The woman's attorney, ART KOSIERADZKI, says the Supreme Court ruling permits siblings, same sex or unmarried couples, and others to sue as well. But he contends the ruling will not result in a flood of new lawsuits.

ART KOSIERADZKI: The plaintiff's bar in general is very, very cautious about taking a dram shop claim and only bringing a dram shop claim if they have a viable claim because of the challenges that you do face.

BILL CATLIN: But John Berglund with the Minnesota Licensed Beverage Association criticizes the ruling and says he may ask lawmakers for further clarification.

JOHN BERGLUND: For people who do not have a legal relationship to someone who might be hurt, it's allowing them to recover damages. That gets to be a little bit ambiguous and can be very broad.

BILL CATLIN: Berglund says the ruling could increase proprietors insurance costs and the price of a drink. For Minnesota Public Radio, I'm Bill Catlin

GRETA CUNNINGHAM: The forecast for Minnesota today calls for partly to mostly sunny skies around the region, with high temperatures generally in the 70s. Tonight, clear and cool. Statewide, there is a slight chance of thunderstorms in the far Southwest near Worthington. Lows tonight from 40 in the northeast to 60 in the southwest.

On Saturday, sunny skies statewide. A slight chance of thunderstorms in the far southwest. Highs on Saturday from 78 to 85 degrees. Around the region at this hour, mostly sunny skies. Rochester reports sunshine and 69. It's sunny in Saint Cloud and 71, cloudy in International Falls and 64, sunny in Duluth and 65. And in the Twin cities, mostly sunny, 73. That's the news update. I'm Greta Cunningham.

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PERY FINELLI: It is now seven minutes after 12 noon. Welcome back to Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Perry Finelli, in today for Gary Eichten. Gary returns on Monday.

Well, this hour on Midday, two views of women's history. Later in the hour, we'll hear from Marilyn Bryant, one of the state's most influential business women. First, we'll hear from Susan Hill Gross, the director of the upper Midwest Women's History center, the St. Paul-based center Gross directs was started 20 years ago to help teachers get their hands on historical accounts that include women.

Since then, the center has become a publishing house where teachers and others can find updated materials about women's roles in world and US history. Susan Hill Gross told Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Olson her interest in history started as she grew up in Washington, DC.

SUSAN GROSS: I think it's part of the reason that I became an historian. History was just surrounding us in those days. And my little friends and I would-- if you can believe a 10-year-old would do this. We would get on a bus and go downtown and look at the newsreels and go to all the monuments and so forth. And Washington is so rich to this day. So that was an interesting part of my growing up.

DAN OLSON: Were your parents armchair historians who were helping you interpret everything you were seeing in Washington, DC? Or were you left to your own devices?

SUSAN GROSS: I think we were quite left to our own devices. This was a different way of raising children. I look back, our parents didn't hover much. And we were expected to go out and play with our friends and to do things and be very independent.

Of course, part of this was that you didn't drive a car during the war, you might remember. So we walked to school, three or four miles. It was a long way. And so we were expected at quite a young age to be independent.

DAN OLSON: Washington, DC, what an amazingly rich environment for a young person to grow up and see at least what I suppose we would call now the official version of history for the United States. But still vastly rich resource for a young person.

SUSAN GROSS: That's right. And Eleanor Roosevelt, of course, was part of that history. So you got a little clue. It was a very masculine history. And one of the small introductions to Women's History that we do with kids is we have a series of slides on the outdoor art in Washington. And that's quite a fascinating little discussion on gender, obviously.

There are 110 individual men in statues in the city of Washington, DC, and three women. So once you begin to look at this-- and young people will say to us, well, it's because the men are important. So then we list them. We have a list of them. And they say, well, I see. We don't know most of these people.

And there are all kinds of reasons why this developed the way it did. But obviously, it is a particular view of history as a politics or by extension the military, particularly.

DAN OLSON: You grew up for a few years in Washington, DC, coming back to Minnesota, apparently later on. And then at a point in your life deciding to become a teacher. What motivated that?

SUSAN GROSS: Well, a number of things, actually. I always say that I had three adult lives. And my first adult life was to be married to an army officer. So again, I traveled a great deal for my 20s and into my 30s and had children. And one child in Georgia and one in Alabama. And lived in Germany and had a wonderful time. Just loved that army life.

DAN OLSON: You're not being arch there. You love picking up, packing up, and changing.

SUSAN GROSS: I didn't mind, I mean, at that point. I certainly would now. That's for sure. But the army moving is quite different. You always know people wherever you go. There's a routine of getting along. There's a routine of packing up and so forth.

And yes, after 13 years of this, it was maybe a little difficult. But my first husband became very ill, and it was obvious that I was going to have to be the family income stream, if you will. So at that point, I went back to the most practical thing that one could do when you have the BA and inter-departmental from the University of Minnesota.

Actually what I did was maybe a little more adventuresome. I went to William and Mary. We were-- or as we like to say Mary and William in Virginia. And we actually had T-shirts with that on way back in the '60s if you can imagine. We and did an MA in history and then did some work so that I could be certified as a teacher.

DAN OLSON: So in the history you were teaching high school students, you were teaching the kind of history that you grew up learning, which was-- what should we call it? I've already called it the official version of history. A pretty white male, traditional oriented history.

SUSAN GROSS: Yes and no. The curriculum in the '60s was beginning to change. And I should just say right in here that then I came to Minnesota and taught for a year. After that, I was divorced and moved back to Minnesota. So that came quite quickly after Savannah.

But what was being introduced in the '60s, although it wasn't particularly inclusive of women, was the idea of social history. So there was some wonderful curriculum, for example, that came out of Harvard that supplemented a straight textbook on social history, on labor history. And those things tend to begin to include women. The triangular waste fire in New York and so forth will begin to pull in women.

I did look back at those social histories and I'm amazed at how they did not include women. But it's by extension, you almost begin to because you're looking at bottom up history rather than picking out eminent people to emphasize.

DAN OLSON: As an educator, were you already looking for your own resources to supplement, maybe even replace, the books you had in your classroom?

SUSAN GROSS: Absolutely. And the other piece of this was that we didn't-- when I taught here in Minnesota, both at St. Louis Park and then later at Robbinsdale, we didn't use textbooks. And we used supplementary materials. We did team teaching.

One of the things that's been interesting to me about the new hire standards that are being brought in is that the first one is what they call an inquiry standard, and that's what we were doing. We taught the discipline rather than just out of a textbook saying, now you have to read this and we'll discuss it.

DAN OLSON: Well, let's start there. Let's take that on. Here in Minnesota, we have heard a lot about the profiles of learning issue, graduation standards, somewhat related to that. As an educator, as a person intensely interested in history, do you see evidence that Minnesota School students, public school students will now have a better grasp of history? Will it be more inclusive? What would you call it, a more balanced view, a wider view, a broader view?

SUSAN GROSS: I think so. I think it's happening all over. And one of our contentions is that-- or one of the things that I see happening is that women's history, social history, is included in lots of public history as well as in the high school. So I think kids begin to ask, where are the women? Or isn't my history being taught here?

And then I think by its nature, having that inquiry thing, inquiry methods, for example, in place, or having projects for kids in place means that those young people can pick a project they're interested in. And often it might be to interview their grandparents or their grandmother or to do something with local history. As soon as, again, you get into local history, I think you tend to be more inclusive.

DAN OLSON: What's happening to the teaching of history in schools? Is the teaching of history being modified, or as some people might say, changed, altered in a way that we're losing one chapter of history? The stories of Jefferson, Washington either being dismissed, diluted, or much less time spent on them, and getting other kinds of history that I suppose some people might argue isn't that important to know about the founding of our country, for example.

SUSAN GROSS: I can't speak for really how history is being taught in schools. I've been away from the classroom too long. I mean, I know what I think maybe should occur. What I think is that there's this idea that kids are a vessel. And if the vessel is filled up with this kind of history, they can't learn about Jefferson or Washington or whatever.

Now, you may teach all of these people and all of these eras somewhat differently because you're going to include-- you're not going to ignore the fact that George Washington owned slaves. Now, what you do with that may be-- there may be multiple discussions about this, how this happened. But it doesn't mean that the narrative of American history is certainly still going to be taught.

I mean, for one thing, how do you teach unless you have a sort of chronological order to teach in? But your discussions may be quite expanded. And I also think that you ask almost anyone, at least my age in my 60s, especially women, and they will say they hated history. Yet what brings out people's passions more as you're saying from what's happened with these standards, then history.

Because those are so symbolic of the United States, of our patriotism, it gets to the core of our being. And I think the more we can include wide discussions that are honestly conducted so that the teacher's view is only one of them, and the students take part in this and do their own investigating, they will get much more out of history.

Hardly any of us remember the narrative, Dan. We don't. I mean, I, as an historian, have to go back and reread the narrative. So just sitting down and reading a textbook, we've all done this. And then as soon as it's closed and out the door, that knowledge is dumped out of your head. So when people are there-- we call it ego involvement in teaching. When your own-- when you possess part of this knowledge because you're adding to it or thinking about it, that's when it begins to be meaningful to you.

DAN OLSON: Who is writing history these days? I seem to recall reading a review of three big national history textbooks. This was a few years ago now, two, three, four years ago. Famous names, all male historians, I think, involved in these three textbooks that were essentially vying, if you will, for school budgets and classrooms. And they were being reviewed. And I'm just wondering who's writing history these days and what's being included.

SUSAN HILL GROSS: I think if you look at those histories that frequently women's history is still what we call side barred. There's a, whoops, I forgot to add this person. And so you have a little box over here with Susan B. Anthony in it or something. And it can be what we call a low level. It's picking out a woman to emphasize rather than saying, now, how does the Civil War look from the point of view of women?

I think some literature is beginning to do that well. If you've read Cold Mountain, he goes back and forth from a women's view at home to the man who's in the Civil War and then finally brings these two together. It's happening all around us. People are picking up on this.

Now, at the scholarly level, you can't keep up with women's history. When I went to graduate school in history, they used to say that writing your dissertation was moving old bones from one graveyard to the next in history. Now, they discovered that half the story at least hadn't been told. And so you have this just burgeoning, incredible literature on women's history.

Marge and I-- Marge Bingham and I wrote a series of books on the history of women in world cultures for high school students. And our bibliographies ran anywhere from 3 to 600 books I suppose at the time. You couldn't possibly-- it would take you a lifetime to do women in Islam or even women in Saudi Arabia.

So maybe eight major books have been written by Arab women scholars in the last couple of years on that area of the world. So that's very encouraging. The tough work, the in-the-trenches work is being done. And that's not going to go away. And some of it's good, some of it isn't-- is good, but that's the way scholarship is.

PERRY FINELLI: Susan Hill Gross, the director of the Upper Midwest Women's History Center. Later in the hour, as part of our Voices of Minnesota interviews, we'll hear from Marilyn Bryant about her involvement in women's issues. Let's return to Dan Olson's conversation with Susan Hill Gross.

DAN OLSON: I guess through any history that we read, there is this gnawing suspicion, this concern that somehow it's coming to us filtered. There's a subtext. There's a line of propaganda that's woven through it for our benefit, the writers would say. And what's your method? What's the assurance? What's the way of reading history so that we can pick up hints and clues? Wait a minute. This doesn't sound right. This doesn't read authentically. I feel there's something out of balance here.

SUSAN HILL GROSS: Well, I think for young people, there's two answers to this. First, that's why we talk about teaching them the structure of history. And we might even start with something like the examples from Washington. What were you supposed to see when you went to Washington, DC, and walked around outside? What are you supposed to be getting from that history, which is obviously historical?

And certainly, there was, oh, big, big subtext. You're right. And a lot of it even got involved in politics after the Civil War. The North put up all these statues of people we've never heard of and wouldn't allow the South to have statues. So, you have a lot of interesting political agendas there.

As far-- and so you teach them to look for these things. You look for bias. You look for were there three or four witnesses to something? We do a lot with witnessing. How good is a witness to an event? And I used to use examples with the kids like, well, look at me. I'm in my 50s at the time. How good am I grew up in Washington, DC, during the war? How good a witness am I?

So you talk about it. It isn't just because you witnessed something. As any court lawyer knows, it isn't very necessarily faithful. So do you have things from different views? All these historical methods questions-- you have kids really start with-- young people start with. And we would like that to happen in kindergarten on, that they begin to know the structure of this very elegant discipline called history. Now, that's step one.

Then I would say step two as a teacher is to, in most cases, let the young people do their own research, come back to you. And if you think a book that you're using is very skewed, you have them analyze this, maybe pull in a bunch of books on that same topic and say, what do you notice that is different? So they begin to do that critical analysis because there really is a great deal of difference between history, good historical writing and propaganda.

Now, does that mean that we don't rewrite history for our own generations? Of course, that is somewhat true, that we look at different subjects. We may look at this-- now that the Cold War is over, we may look at that whole thing obviously differently. Maybe we look at the participation of women's voluntary groups, which might have looked silly to us during World War II when the bombs were dropping.

Now, we look back at the Progressive Era and say, all those-- and those voluntary kinds of clubs and so forth really maybe was one of the-- created one of the huge changes. So we say, well, I think we should look at these things that were going on below the public sphere, if you will, that maybe those things were important.

DAN OLSON: What do you think is going on in our culture today? We came through a kind of a chapter, a phase of the women's movement in this country in modern history now. And with this very heady economic time that we're in, I wonder what you think about the status of women, and where they rank, and how they are doing in terms of the culture of the country at this point in time, because I suppose we're living the history that will be written about here in a few years.

The impression I have is that there is a real change afoot that I guess the fate of women, the fortunes of women are not making as much progress as they were maybe 10, 15 years ago.

SUSAN HILL GROSS: That is a hard one to take on because immediately, my mind, because we've done so much international work, thinks of women in an international way. And when you think that since the UN Decade for Women in the '70s that India, for example, now has 250,000 women's organizations. It is all over the world. I think some of the biggest setbacks are this reaction to women actually making a great deal of progress in all kinds of cultures.

Now, certainly, the barriers are more obvious and more formidable in a lot of these cultures, too. So there's progress, but also it still seems to us to be horrible barriers to their well-being, including sometimes not being able to vote like in Saudi Arabia or whatever. But on the other hand, I think in the United states, Sarah Evans was talking about this at a lecture last night at the historian--

DAN OLSON: This is the University of Minnesota historian.

SUSAN HILL GROSS: Exactly. And she was saying that she thinks that it's like a wave, that there are dips in that wave, and there's a building of energy maybe that is happening when it's not as obvious. And I do think we're in that place. There obviously were some backlashes that are still continue to be present. And we all see those around us in the sense of a very strong religious right that is trying to make claims of patriarchy again for their congregations and so forth.

There are young people who say, oh, we've got it made. Now, we can be in the corporate positions of power, or we can be lawyers. When I went to the University of Minnesota, there was a 10% quota in the medical school for women. That just isn't present. And I think about 50% probably of the graduates are women.

So there have been huge strides. I think there's been disappointment, too, for women. They still that-- now, they're kind of expected to work, and yet they still probably are doing more at home. They are certainly taking care of the elderly more.

DAN OLSON: When you pick up the paper and listen to the news about the media accounts of how women are treated in the world, it doesn't sound like there's much progress being made in Afghanistan with the Taliban in power there, with female genital mutilation still being practiced in some cultures. I think a little closer to home-- we do have very much the feeling that women are making progress. But it's hard to chart. It's hard to measure over a broad span of time. Do you feel like there's genuine progress?

SUSAN HILL GROSS: Yes, I really do. And I think there are in those very difficult problems overseas. I think you hear about the Taliban a good bit first because it's so bizarre that the media likes to talk about it, which I don't blame them, but also because women want you to know that. And so we have groups of Afghani women in Washington, DC, for example, making sure that gets in the media.

And I'm not sure that would have happened 20 years ago. The same way with the mutilation that both-- that the UN is working on that problem. But women in Africa are working strongly on that problem. So that's very encouraging. They're forming organizations and so forth to try to get rid of that practice.

And then in the United states, I believe that what we really have are people working on the very nitty-gritty, everyday problems. In other words, I just talked to a friend who said she now is helping to run two battered women's shelters out east. We have these things funded now.

We recognize that there is that violence that women are vulnerable to. We know that there is this problem with the elderly. Now, what are we going to do about it? Are we going to share it out? Or do we all need more help if there are two earners in a family? Are there new services that should come about? How can we keep our elderly more independent?

So I believe there is, but I think it's more on a grassroots or maybe even a day-to-day level. It isn't like we're going to really push for the ERA, for example, or some huge national change. What I personally would like to see, obviously, is more women in government at the national level. But certainly, on the local level, that's already occurring.

DAN OLSON: If you were guessing about how history is going to be written about prominent events, again, turning to the media here, would you guess that Monica Lewinsky and President Bill Clinton are going to be a footnote in history, or that they will be some sidebar off on the corner of the page or not mentioned at all?

SUSAN HILL GROSS: I suppose it still is up in the air as to what might happen. I suspect-- I don't know whether you know the song (SINGING) Mama, where is my pa? Up in the White House, darling.

Well, that was the song, of course, that haunted for Grover Cleveland and was used as propaganda with him. And I don't know how many people, but somebody like myself knows the tune to that song anymore. I think usually scandals are of interest. We all think they're fascinating. And supposedly, Harding had an illegitimate child that was fathered in the White House and all these kinds of things. But I think basically, you're correct, that other things will intervene.

DAN OLSON: You'll be probably holding a spade in hand yourself here in the month of August, breaking ground for what is the Minnesota Woman's Suffrage Memorial and what Susan Hill Gross is that all about.

SUSAN HILL GROSS: Well, this has been a very interesting legacy. It started with the Minnesota chapter of the League of Women Voters and Barbara Stuhler, who is a historian and mover and shaker, and very important to this effort.

During the 75th anniversary of the suffrage amendment, which was now a couple of years ago, at the end of that year, the league with us and other organizations decided that there should be a legacy at the State Capitol for women, and that this would be the first monument at the State Capitol that would really celebrate a long social movement.

Remember, when women started that, they were not expected to speak in public. They were not-- they were supposed to stay at home. They lived their public life through their husbands if they were married. And their husband had really complete control over their public life. And voting was considered the most radical thing to ask for.

So it was a long process. They had to learn to petition. They had to learn to march. They had to learn all of those symbols. They would go over to the Minnesota legislators. And the people who voted for the suffrage amendment would get a flower in their lapel so that people could identify the men who weren't for this. I mean, you had to convince men, after all, to vote for this.

And so it was a long process. But I think that was better. Some people say, well, why couldn't these-- and, in fact, Stanton and others in their old age said, why couldn't have people just seeing that this was the thing to do? And actually, what happened was women learned to organize. And I don't think when something happens top down, and you just make changes, I don't think that happens.

So in this case, it's done women very well, that they learn to organize over a long period of time and learn what real barriers there are. I mean, I think they were surprised at how they could try to convince the opposition of things that seemed so logical to them and then just have it dismissed, not even really argued against often. So it was an important struggle.

DAN OLSON: Susan Hill Gross, thanks a lot. Nice to talk to you.

SUSAN HILL GROSS: You're welcome. Thank you.

PERRY FINELLI: Susan Hill Gross is director of the Upper Midwest Women's History Center based in St. Paul. The center publishes and sells books and teaching guides about women's history. Their telephone number is area code 651-644-1727. You're listening to our Voices of Minnesota interviews on Midday.

Marilyn Tickle Bryant has never run for political office, but she's often right in the middle of where public policy is being made. She's a member of Minnesota's Higher Education Coordinating Board. She is vice president of a construction business she runs with her brother called Adjustable Joist. Bryant chaired the Minnesota Women's Political Caucus. She's a founding director of the Minnesota Women's Campaign Fund. Marilyn Bryant grew up in Edina. She talked with Dan Olson about her decision to get involved in women's issues.

DAN OLSON: Who were your role models? Who were the people? Who were the women especially you were watching and thinking about as a kid growing up?

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: That's a little difficult to answer because in the days when I grew up, I have to say that familiar phrase to all of us now of role model was not so much. So then I think Eleanor Roosevelt, Margaret Sanger, some of those women, and then certainly Margaret Mead, whom I managed to entice here for a health alert conference at the University of Minnesota that I chaired some years ago. And that was interesting and fun.

But I think a lot of women of my generation perhaps looked at public figures, such as movie stars, and that never enticed me too much. And when we would play those games where you'd think up a woman and which women am I thinking of. Mine would be the Eleanor Roosevelts and those women and not the movie stars.

DAN OLSON: Sanger is an interesting name to mention because the tiny bit I know about her is she was really vilified roundly for her work in reproductive rights, probably one of the most unpopular causes a woman could choose at her particular time when-- in our history. And it's interesting. You mentioned that she was really out there in front. You, by contrast, have been out in front, but apparently more in the boardrooms than out in front.

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: Well, that's correct. I certainly believe in working through the system. I think that's where you can affect change. However, I also believe in initiating projects where you can affect some change. For instance, the project of celebrating women of excellence, a tribute to the 150th anniversary of Seneca Falls that showcased women as composers and conductors.

And when I announced it would be the first time those halls have ever heard music composed and conducted only by women, the whole hall erupted in applause. So I think there are things you can do within the guidelines within the system, which will make some change. That was a step forward for women, for women composers and conductors.

But there are lots of things you can do. But generally, yes, I believe in working through the system. I certainly have had my share of marching. I've marched several times in Washington, DC, for the Equal Rights Amendment and also for reproductive freedom. And I used to say, have white dress. We'll march.

DAN OLSON: A big decision. A kid from Edina, very comfortable, probably pretty successful family background. I'm curious to know what your father and mother thought when daughter number one, only daughter marched off to march.

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: Well, at that time, my father was not living. And mother-- she generally thought if I decided to do something, it must be OK. But she did use to say to me fairly frequently, why don't you let some of the other girls do that? Why don't you let some of the other girls do that? And that still resonates within me. But I would just say, well, mother, next time.

DAN OLSON: Did you find yourself attracted to the activist mold? Why? For what reason? By whom? What was the lure of becoming involved, becoming active? You could have had a very comfortable, very successful life in business.

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: I always say it's because I didn't know how to play bridge or tennis that I ended up being more in the activist model. I think probably, to be truthful, after I had graduated from the University of Minnesota in liberal arts, I returned to take to the Humphrey graduate school to do some graduate study. And one of the courses that I took was sex-based discrimination.

And I started to read about some of those cases. And there was the one case about Bell Telephone, where the women were paid differently than the men. And I think it was what is called the snap of consciousness. I thought, well, this is not fair, which is a very simplistic way of reacting. But, of course, it was not fair.

And I think from then, I was hooked. And I think that, at that time, another woman in the class approached me because she saw I was ready, had had that snap of consciousness. And she asked me to join the Minnesota Women's Political Caucus, which I did. And six months later, I found myself as chair of that caucus.

DAN OLSON: What your comments remind me of is this impression we have of women in the economic class you're describing, women of some means, of some privilege, who, in fact, may live in pretty carefully circumscribed environments, may almost live in trapped lives. I mean, I know that's a stereotype, but is, in fact, their real shape to the stereotype.

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: Yes, I believe that's true. I live at a very different life from most of my friends whom I graduated from Northrop Collegiate School with. But I don't think they're disapproving of my life, and I certainly am not of theirs. But I just think it's different, and we accept that.

And one thing, which I feel very strongly-- I was the only woman in the country that marched in the National March in Washington under the sponsorship of a Junior League. I thought it was terribly important for privileged women to support an expansion of rights for those women who are not so privileged. And I wanted the Junior League as an organization of privileged women. At least it's perceived that way, to step out front and say, yes, we want to have other women have the same rights that we enjoy.

DAN OLSON: Who taught you? Or how did you learn about how things work? And I guess the assumption behind that question is there is some understanding that is passed among people that, well, you have to go talk to so-and-so about getting something done here with the university. I mean, did you grow up in a family where there was an understanding that money, connections, meetings, that was how things happened?

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: No, not really, because my mother was a very, very traditional homemaker. And my father concentrated on business because he founded his own business and obviously had a great deal to do all the time. My two brothers both graduated from the University of Minnesota as engineers, which my father was.

And I've often said perhaps my life would have been very different had I been a graduate of engineering school, which now I can see is a lack in my background. But it might have made my life very different because it might have meant that I would be more firmly immersed in my business than I am because there are certain things I can add and contribute too in the construction business, but there are many that I cannot.

I, at one time, went back to Dunwoody Institute to try to learn about drafting and how to read plans. It was not a success for me. I decided I was too late. I was in a class with 99% 18-year-old boys. And that was not working for me. So I didn't pursue that. I decided, well, I hope I can contribute in other ways.

DAN OLSON: So if you didn't grow up with it, who were your mentors? Who were the people who taught you about-- again, what I'm stereotyping is this image I have in my head of how things get done, which is to say, you pick up the phone. You have people's private numbers, their desk numbers. You know how to arrange meetings. You know the-- you know the doors that a name, influence, money can open. Who taught you about this?

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: Well, we always say that the Junior League is a training organization, and it truly is. And I think that proves itself when you look around at some of the leaders in our community. Emily Tuttle comes to mind.

And there are many others who have served their internship and got-- and if you didn't learn how to run a meeting through the Junior League, where it was all the time everyday meetings, meetings, meetings, of course-- when I was in the Junior League, it was 9:30 AM meetings. And we all got babysitters at $0.50 an hour to come into our homes. Now, it's all evening meetings.

And my daughter, Anne White, who is now president of the Junior League of Minneapolis, has had the same kind of training. But now, it's very different because many, many of those women work outside of the home. They did not at my time.

But I think you start out as a committee member. And the next thing you know, if you're willing to work and get turn out the materials, you're the chair of that committee. And then you get on the executive committee. And then you become the leader simply because there's always a thirst and a need for leadership.

And if you're willing to do the work, I think you have to work very hard to be a leader in any kind of an organization. And I believe in that. I mean, you don't deserve to be there if you don't work hard. And you certainly very soon weed out those people who won't do the work. But I always seem to enjoy it. And I enjoy a new challenge, so I just keep working.

DAN OLSON: You have a daughter. How many other children?

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: Two daughters, a son that's the oldest.

DAN OLSON: What's your relationship with them? Did you pull them aside at a certain point and say, now listen here, girls. There are certain things you need to know about life because you are a woman. Or were they a little more typical like some kids and wouldn't listen to what mom had to say?

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: I don't think mom ever had to say much. I think it was more a case of simply watching what mom did. In fact, as I think back on their high school years and certainly the years before that, there was never any question of you can only watch 10 minutes of TV or 14 minutes of CDs. Well, there weren't even CDs. Whatever.

I have an office in our home on the lower level. And after dinner at night, the children went to their rooms. They each had desks in their rooms to study. And I always went to my office and closed the door. And that sounds crazy to think that that could actually happen, but it really did. And so I think they knew that I was working on something, which I always was. And so I think they grew up knowing that.

And the year that health alert at the University of Minnesota occurred when we had Margaret Mead come to speak in Northrop auditorium and happened to be our daughter Anne's birthday-- and so for her birthday treat, she got to come and hear Margaret Mead at Northrop auditorium. I'm not sure it's what she would have chosen, but she did it.

PERRY FINELLI: Marilyn Bryant. You're listening to our Voices of Minnesota interviews on Midday. Bryant has been an executive in her construction business for 20 years. Her more recent volunteer activities include fundraising for Metropolitan State University and women's athletics at the University of Minnesota. Let's return to her conversation with Dan Olson.

DAN OLSON: Have you ever run for political office? I don't know if I see anywhere you've been a candidate.

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: No, I never have.

DAN OLSON: Why is that?

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: Well--

DAN OLSON: Is that too public?

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: Probably. I'm not too much for parades and waving at the people from the back of a convertible or whatever. And really, to run for office, you have to do a lot of those things. And I think it would be perhaps a hardship on my husband. And I know when I took over as chair of the Minnesota Women's Political Caucus, and I was the first, for some reason, recognized as a Republican-- I say for some reason because now I'm much more of an independent because of my views on social issues.

But at that time, Chuck Slocum chaired the Minnesota Republican Party. And he had lunch with me. And I said, Chuck, do you think I should do this? And he said, that depends on whether or not you want to run for office. He thought that would be a black smear on my record if I were ever to run for office. And I said, probably not. And he said, well, you'd make a great governor. Chuck has always been very generous about saying that. And so there went my governorship down the drain.

DAN OLSON: How much money do you suppose you've raised for political candidates? Just political causes candidates, not to mention all the other causes.

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: That would not be as great a sum. And I couldn't even begin to estimate because the women's campaign fund does raise a lot of money. But that's not just me. That's others on the board as well. I have raised more money for scholarships for low-income, disadvantaged women and people of color at Metropolitan State University in the name of the Reatha Clark King Endowed Scholarship. And we are nearing a half a million dollars there.

There was no money for private scholarship funds when that fund was started by me in 1990s-- or 1987, excuse me. That's what I'm trying to say. The one thing that they don't have access to, but that they need to become self-supporting and contributors to our society is an education. And only if we make an education available, give them access, will they be able to succeed.

DAN OLSON: Women in business are common now, in fact, women in very high positions in business. When you started in business, did the customers call and get your voice and say, could I speak to the boss?

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: Oh, certainly, that happens all the time. They think they've made a mistake. And when I appeared on the scene and started going to some meetings of the general contractors association, I could have been on every committee there had I so chosen because it was such a novelty to them to see a woman. And there still are very few women in construction in positions of ownership.

DAN OLSON: What have you found in your life when you've walked into rooms dominated by men, white males, whether it's in business, or fundraising, or any area of life? What works? Is it a-- is it a lead pipe cinch that men recognize intelligence and say, oh, here's a person who's smart. We better pay attention to her. Is it money that speaks in those meetings? What is the technique? What is it that works in those settings of fairly high power men where they then acknowledge and agree to open the door, a crack for women?

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: I think, first of all, assess the group, keep your mouth shut until you have something very relevant to say, and learn what's going on with the group. And if it's joining a new board, a new group, whatever kind, I'm always very, very careful to prepare for the meeting with whatever materials they send so you know what's going on. But I think wait until you really have something to say. At least, that's my method

DAN OLSON: Among the many causes you have been a part of-- you have been a champion of women's athletics at the University of Minnesota, which everybody says, oh, that's fine. That's nice. Women should have a chance to play, too. But a lot of men still hold off and say, no, wait a minute. What really brings in the money at the U are athletics for men. Let's never forget that. Why have you been a champion for women athletes at the U?

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: Well, for exactly that reason that the men seem to think that it all belongs to them. In this day and age, that is certainly not true. I watch my six-year-old granddaughter who is very active in soccer as well as other things. But I was not ever exposed to athletics as a child. Certainly, my mother-- I don't think I ever saw her walk down the road. And so it's not part of my background growing up.

And at that time, women were figure skaters, and that was about it for their athletic endeavors. But I realized that allowing women, giving-- encouraging them to participate in athletics was not only a better lifestyle, healthy, all those things, but it also meant opportunities. And I have always championed giving women broader, greater opportunities. And it has just been a revolutionary change to see these young women and the hockey team that we started last year that was so successful.

And I'm pleased to say that not only women contribute to the University of Minnesota women's athletics department. We have a lot of men now. They're having little girls, and they're understanding how important it is to support that. And Chris Volz has done a magnificent job of encouraging women and broadening the opportunities there.

DAN OLSON: Well, I'm sure all kinds of people applaud that effort because there are so many sports crazy parents out there who want the best opportunity for their daughters. But for crying out loud, you're a Phi Beta Kappa graduate in philosophy of the University of Minnesota.

And of course, it's all those very programs-- I suppose their supporters would say, it's the academic side of life at the university that gets pushed out of the picture when we play up what amounts to professional athletics at the varsity level at universities and colleges.

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: I don't think that is true. I think most of the persons who are intelligent, which are givers, recognize the importance of giving to a program that widens access and opportunities for women. And that's what I'm all in favor of.

And also, there are Title IX considerations, which Congress said you have to start equalizing the number of persons that participate on college campuses in athletics, plus the amount of money that's given. And believe me, we were falling behind. Now, we have added soccer four years ago and last year, women's hockey. And look at the interest that's generated. Women's hockey is the fastest growing sport.

At the opening, when Kathleen and Bob Ritter dropped the puck at that first game, it was so thrilling. And I was sitting next to George Pillsbury, who is a very strong supporter of the university. And as they skated out and after the first 10 minutes or so, he turned to me and he said, gee, Marilyn, those girls can really skate. What did you expect, George? Of course, they can really skate. So men are beginning to understand that women have athletic ability in great numbers.

DAN OLSON: Marilyn Bryant, a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much.

MARILYN TICKLE BRYANT: Thank you. I've enjoyed it.

PERRY FINELLI: Businesswoman and activist Marilyn Bryant. Our Voices of Minnesota interviews are produced by Dan Olson. NPR's Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening rural communities and expanding cultural opportunities through the Minnesota rural arts initiative.

Programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Valleyfair Amusement Park, where you can choose your kind of fun, thrill rides, live entertainment, and refreshing water park. Midday is produced by Sara Meyer. Mike McCall-Pengra is associate producer. We had help this week from Tom Robertson at our NPR station in Bemidji and Eric Johnson in NPR operations. Kate Smith is executive producer. I'm Perry Finelli.

Gary Eichten is back on Monday. And we should mention that at 11 o'clock on our Midday program, always a popular guest, a former US Senator and presidential candidate, Eugene McCarthy will stop by to discuss his new book with Gary Eichten. It is called a No-Fault Politics-- Modern Presidents, the Press, and Reformers and is described as taking pokes and probes at what's left of the body politic.

We'll open up the phone lines and take your questions for Eugene McCarthy at 11 o'clock on Midday on Monday. I should mention coming up on Talk of the Nation Science Friday, Ira Flatow, a look at alternatives to Microsoft's Windows operating systems, and in the second hour, a look at how Star Trek has conquered the world. That'll do it for Midday today. Thanks again for joining us. I'm Perry Finelli.