6 minutes past 11 programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by change Masters incorporated into bench individualize leadership communication coaching for courageous executive choosing to master change information available. Www. Change masters.com. And good morning. Welcome to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary. I can glad you could join us for years. There's been talk in Minnesota about raising the academic standards in Minnesota Public Schools the goal to make sure the kids have actually learned what they're supposed to learn before they graduate from the schools in response to that concern State officials settled on a two-part graduation standard all high school graduates now have to pass a basic essentially grade school level skills test. Secondly. They also have to complete work in a series of subject area is designed to demonstrate their confidence in those areas this a profile of learning as it's called replaces requirements that students simply take a required series of classes the profile of learning schedule to take effect. This fall is causing all kinds of controversy critics among other things that actually amounts to a dumbing down of the curriculum Hertz at Can students replaces objective criteria with subjective non standards and they say it's causing widespread confusion among the very teachers who are responsible for implementing a program early this morning those critics won a partial Victory the Minnesota house voted to phase in the program rather than require each School District begin the entire program this fall about the state senate has rejected a similar DeLay So the issue now has to be resolved in a conference committee to discuss the profile of learning and bring us up-to-date on just where we stand is Winona dfl State Representative Jane pawlowski representative Pulaski teaches advanced placement social studies at Wenonah high school. He's been one of the leading critics of the profiles of learning Ultra with this is Bob way to look missioner of the Department of Children families and learning the agency that's overseeing the profile of learning program. And we also invite you to join our conversation. This hour weed especially like to hear from those of you who are in fact Frontline teachers by the times we don't hear from you are interested in your perspectives on whether the profile of learning will actually improve education if you are a teacher or if you're not if you got a question or comment about the second part of the graduation requirement, give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand for calling from outside the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free at one eight hundred to +422-828-227-6802 for 22828. Thanks for coming in this morning last night. Well, I think their last night it's a little bit unfair to say it was a victory for anyone what happened last night was a compromise and it was a compromise that had been worked out really starting in. Sorry, and then moving to the language that you saw incorporated into the K-12 bill. There has been a great deal of frustration. And I think the frustration has been on all sides of the Departments that legislators the school districts the teachers the parents and that frustration came to a head to the legislative session began. I had met with her members of the 80 Department in the commissioner even yesterday and as those meetings preceded. We all agreed that there were problems. Now. How do you resolve the problem? If we also all agree that we want high standards? We want to make sure that our students are going to have the very very highest criteria before they graduate from our Public School System then how do we do it? And if everyone agrees there's problems and we better work them out before we proceed. So the language that you saw last night and I don't know if you were listening, but we went till about 3 in the morning. Last night if I sound just a little tired of the debate last night was not acrimonious there was not a lot of yelling and screaming with the language had been worked out by the parties before it had been inserted. So I think where we are now, we're at a point now where at hopefully we can move forward and we can clarify what exactly it is. We want. Our teachers are school districts. And more importantly we want the students to do in Minnesota in our K-12 settings just for a moment set aside all the debate over the logistics how this would be implemented and the issue of local control versus take control all of that forget about that and pretend that we had a wand here. We wave the wand program was fully in place teachers knew what they were supposed to be doing everything was up and running that being the case with the profile of learning is it currently exists would all Minnesota students then be getting the kind of education that they should be getting. Well, that's a that's a good question. I think the answer is that is is absolutely yes. They would I think just expanding what and what representative pawlowski I talked about. That was an excellent to discussion last night and I were very pleased with the with a compromise that was reached because the objective all along was that that the kids in the year 2002 would graduate under the high standards and that what that has not changed. There's been no retreat no cut back or limitation of the profile the kids will still graduate in the year 2002 under the high standards. The only thing that was a change is that it gives districts the option of a phasing it in more quickly than then they would under under the current proposal. But even then the other legislation does Provide Financial incentives for districts to continue the course to continue on schedule. But if they do want to a phase it in they have that option, but still the bottom line is it all kids in the year 2002 will be graduating under the standard. So I think that was a good compromise and it's something that we can all work with back to the basic standards. Then everybody would be getting a top-flight education would could we describe it as a so-called world-class education? Where are the kids will be able to compete with the kids in Taiwan or wherever it is sure that that is kind of difficult to Define. What does world-class mean generally think people mean in terms of world classes that Minnesota kids would be performing comparably to among the best in the world. That's of course what it is that we think is really necessary for Minnesota kids to really thrive in the world of the twenty-first century because of the world of the 21st. Tree has even caused a couple years away is going to be a lot different than then what we all grew up in and we have to make sure that all of our students are successful at higher levels. I'm sure we're not represent a plow ski, and I remember the days went when when I was teaching when when not all kids needed to take any algebra or or certainly anything that Beyond algebra or or the Sciences was I was all were virtually all optional after the ninth grade. We think that that all kids need to have higher levels of skills in a whole variety of area so that they can I be successful as they compete with their world neighbors and a profile of learning will do that absolute standards, but also requires kids to be able to apply what they've learned and I think that's the the new component to it the other piece. That's perhaps up. Giving the districts are the most difficult time is how do we how do we make sure that that were using appropriate procedures to demo? So the kids can demonstrate that they are applying I can apply what do what they've learned that I think that's the piece that we all need to work on Pulaski and we often have heard in the last awhile that the best students are actually going to be hurt by this program that they won't be able to take those college-level classes. They won't be able to focus. It was at study and Wayzata, which indicated that three of their top students if you look at their transcripts applied them to the profile of learning standards. These kids would have would have gotten shortchanged. If in fact they would have even gotten a diploma because they spend so much time in college rather than high school. Is this a good program for the best Minnesota students? Okay. That was one of the essential questions. They came up during session and that we had grappled with I teach the AP classes at Winona senior. Hi, and one of the discussion points it came up right away. Is there real content in the grad Rule and are we just stressing process and losing content the AP the Baccalaureate classes in the number of the advanced classes that we have that aren't in those two groups are very content Laden now when you layer on that this system and you drive it in a different direction, you take the content out at least that's the way we were perceiving it. So you saw in last night's language that there is an advisory committee that has been established that will report to the legislature in February of 1999 that has 15 members. They're going to take a look at what's going on with the grad rule the profiles the packages and begin to resolve these problems these these are real problems. If a student takes if that's policeman or Baccalaureate ipsco, but can't get a diploma. There's a there's a problem a big problem and how this thing is being played out and I've talked with the commissioner last night. We had the region Representative for the advanced placement courses from Illinois who has been here. At least one day every week send session started to monitor this to clarify because this is serious business if are AP courses begin to suffer and some a school districts have indeed dropped a p and I have reports of a couple of them because of problems with alignment then we have to rethink how we're putting the standards in place and I think the mechanism recreated last night will do that and in my discussions with the commissioner and with the members of the dcfl, I think we're at least getting a dialog going to can resolve the problem, but it's got to be resolved and it's got to be resolved by the end of this year and certainly before the beginning of the next academic year in September. We have a number of teachers on the line right now. I'd like to get to some callers hear if you're listening right now, especially if you are a teacher Frontline teacher like to have you join our conversation this hour about the profile of learning get us call two two seven six thousand twenty. What area number to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828 or guess this hour Bob wedel commissioner of the Department of Children and Families in learning state representative. Jane pawlowski is with us. He is a social studies teacher at Wenonah High School teachers the advanced placement courses John go ahead, please. Okay, good morning teacher at St. Louis Park and actually a media specialist and what I've seen so far really like as far as to take red standard specially the high standards what I'm seeing is it sourcing teachers to really step up to the plate and teach better skills and they have been and I appreciate what the commissioner said that the that we're looking at content Plus application another words not just a paper test to see what the kids can do. But what can they really apply the skills? Or in a real-world setting so you're all far this. Absolutely. Okay. Thanks for your call. If you want to move on to another caller Mike's on the line from Cambridge. Go ahead sir. I have a couple of comments. I guess. First of all, I do is support standards-based education if it holds promise for improving student learning. I do have some concerns with the profile of learning and its present form. However, I'm part of this. I've looked into it just in my job responsibilities what the profile means for all students including those with disabilities, but I've come across a couple of websites that have looked at this on a national basis and I when I see is Minnesota does not receive highmark's most recently education week. I just gave us a great we had an incomplete because they were still waiting for the profile to evolve and when we finally did get her grade overall for a standards and assessments, we received a C+ only nine other states receive lower grades and five of those nine states either don't have standard or they're currently revising him. So They could surpass us as far as the clarity and how specific are standards are in the English and Mathematics. We received these and this really concerns me. I think that if we don't know what we're talking about and what it's going to look like. I think the whole thing from its Inception isn't going to bear fruit. I think that we need to take a look at what is happening around the country. And and and what what are the basis for some of the evaluations of Minnesota standards? I think we have to come to make an appointment decision and that is do we want to have a state curriculum or not. And I think as we as we take a look at the evaluations at some of the national of folks have done are the states that have scored quotes the highest I have really developed State curriculum their standards clearly identify everything that they want a first grader to know in a second grader to know in the third grade. Turn on the 4th graders, no, excetera excetera excetera and I don't think minnesotans would tolerate that kind of a system. I think the number of the other critics of the system say right now that there's not enough local control state of Minnesota would be doing with some of the other states would be doing people would would be up in arms because of the level of detail that are included in other states standard. So we had to make a decision and we going to identify what the what the broad basic what with the broad standards are in the high standards in addition to the basic standards and then leave it up to Local School boards to determine the creek alarm to determine the methods to determine all of the other details at that need to occur. And that's that's the choice that we made we did not go into the great great detail. A number of other states that have done primarily because we did not believe that we had to be establishing state-level quick. Are you confident that the standards are high in? I Gary I'm not confident in standards are high enough. I do appreciate the comment the commissioner just made that one size does not fit all because I think to it would be disastrous to go to a state curriculum. But the problem is either going to have your cake and eat it too. I mean the way this thing was set up it look like it was being driven toward estate curriculum and the first way those packages which are now described as models and they are not to be taken as the way you teach a particular course. We're introduced those things were what you were supposed to teach. So you took that package that's on the website or you got the paper version of it from the department and then you just taught that particular unit. Well, I know good teaching when I when I see it, but I'm not going to say that you have to teach the way I teach her the way that somebody else teaches 900 the commissioner being an educator knows that to we're going to teach social studies differently math differently English differently. So I think that's one of the real frustrating and confusing parts of what's been happening with Cementation of the grad rule the profiles and the packages. I hope now that we're going to get clarity down to the district level and actually into the classroom because for my frustration I've had 7 workshops this year on the gradual. We had 300 teachers at her school district almost all at master's-level who have walked away from those 7 workshops more confused than they were at the beginning that shouldn't happen. That's a waste of resources that's away. So very precious time those teachers could have been working with students in the classroom and that we can't afford to do that in Minnesota when I get back to some callers here quickly, but What was wrong with the idea of just setting up a requirement of sticking with a requirement that kids took a certain number of classes and maybe strengthening that requirements are that they had to take some more math science, whatever it was and what was wrong with that basic approach to understand people think it's easy to understand because we all think we know what social studies is. I would suggest that that social studies in in Winona might well be very different than the social studies in Rochester or elsewhere in the states of people believe it. They the understand what social studies is, but in fact social studies can be a lot of different things up one is simply by saying here are the classes and you have to take 480 hours of English or social studies or whatever simply that no longer was was going to be the kind of system that we really wanted. We we wanted to move to result system. I basically saying here are the things that we want students to know and be able to do another leave it up to the school districts to decide whether that should be addressed in social studies or whether that should be addressed elsewhere. And we also felt that that we really needed to to move down the road into the into much higher standards and just saying Social Studies 480 hours. So it was a combination of reasons why we moved to this type of a system and I think the rest of the country is moving that way as well Rachel your comment place. Well, I'm an English teacher in on Northern Suburban district and I recently are part of the requirement for my district. This year is for all of us to Pilot or at least pilot a portion of a grandstander itself. And so I recently did that in one of my classes and while I enjoyed the piloting process and also I think my students enjoyed it a couple of concerns. I have as a teacher comes down to how this is going to function in a large classroom with 30-plus students the two specific concerns. I have our that I see that there's a conflict in the amount of time you have to actually Implement these standards that they're going to be doing because those standards require more work than what they currently are there a different kind of work I guess than what is currently being taught in the classroom. And I found another my students couldn't complete the work that I asked them to do because it conflicted with work schedules and things like that. So that's why I'm concerned. I have what how that's going to play. Especially in high school with most of the students at least in my district work for a variety of reasons in the second concern I have is who is responsible for accessing the information that these kids are supposed to get to most of the standards that were looking at our packages were looking at to put into our curriculum. I'm required to some kind of research that goes along with it and our library quite frankly isn't able to support all the students in the school working with that kind of depth of research that they need to so who's supposed to take these kids to the library which may seem like a simple question but really when you get down to it if the kid has 4 classes at the Suunto sport classes that they have to take or six classes or whatever and they're constantly the library. How is that going to work in terms of technology and access to that technology Rachel brings up an excellent point in this is where we get to the process vs. Content when your structured into a particular process and you're going down that particular Avenue of teaching a student then you begin to abandon other things you used to do when whether it's an English class or social studies class the breadth and depth changes dramatically for instance in an AP class your marching toward that test at the end of the road. Well, if you apply the standards on top of it now you have to divert off while you really can't go to directions and the amount of time that we have and I think the the other point that's right up here is and that the commissioner and I have talked about this aligning current curriculum to the standards rather than just throwing everything out that you do and saying you're going to start from scratch. It's it's cleared my discussion now with the Department that Kirk Creek him can be aligned and that you don't need to throw everything out that you did before you just need to be able to verify that the rigor of what you're doing matches the standard and I think that clarification has to be brought home to our District's to Annika is on the line. The people who are supporting his program see as the benefits of you know, having everyone at an equal standard as an AP student of 3 years myself. I've seen several benefits come about of people being able to compete against each other and being able to show that they can achieve at high standards. I mean, this is rewarded when you're applying for colleges and also you get academic awards for it and I just think that there's so many different learning levels for these kids that you know, just having everybody is standard level. There's going to be several people who will be frustrated with having to stay at that level and not being able to accelerate on their own as they would was AP classes. Commissioner sure, I think that's an excellent point. Certainly. We we know that the kids are going to be achieving at that higher levels than others. And that's that's the way everybody wants it to be. Of course. We don't want to hold anybody back. We believe at this system will really accelerate the learning of all kids. I guess the point than we talked about high standards. We're not suggesting that that everybody will just Plateau at that a certain level with the point is that we want all kids achieving at higher standards than they are then they are achieving right now with respect to the AP issue. We know that AP offers rigorous learning opportunities for our kids and we also know he can speak to this but much better than I thought there is an awful lot of the required demonstration in in most AP classes. So we're confident that the that the demonstration requirements will Maybe met in are AP classes. I'm a strong supporter of AP and IB I believe every single high school should be offering AP opportunities for our kids and as commissioner alisher any parent that this rule will a no-wake infringe upon their kids access to AP programs. We've already made a number of recommendations to do the State Board to make sure that the rule is modified so that that does not happen. One of the things you hear is that there's so much emphasis on group work that what happens in reality. Is that the smart kids do all the work the other kids just going to go along for the ride that true I'm confident that representative plausky and his class when he's having group work and he said group work for yours. I'm sure he knows which kids are doing the work and which kids aren't then and he can address that so so I don't feel that that that that really isn't an issue that that will be much of a problem real-world represent representative had off with your teacher had on is not a problem. Well, that's one of the problems that's out there. If you look at how its setup. It does stress this group activity when in reality, you're going to be out there on your own once you graduate from high school. I think they need that interaction and we have that built into a number of activities that I do but that's not the only thing that they do and often times. I think Martin Luther was right. We all must stand on the ramparts alone. So at that point you're going to be up there without holding someone else's hand and you have to do that too. That's what life's all about. So again, there's a balance and I think the problem with the standards they never struck the balance they went one way. I Play Swan way too far over in the process and they abandoned a number of individual types of instruction that demonstrated over centuries really work very well. So we have to strike the balance and I hope that's what we're doing as we move forward after yesterday in the house and they're what we should maybe discuss a little bit here to is where this goes. Now the most in the K-12 that the minute we have to take a break here at we're talking right now about the profile of learning last night the Minnesota house voted to allow school districts to phase in the program but taking a different approach in that still needs to be resolved. We have been joined this hour by Bob wadle commissioner of the Department of Children families and learning and dfl state representative. Jean Pulaski from Winona who teaches advanced placement social studies at Wenonah High School. We'd love to have you join our conversation, especially those of you who are Frontline teachers get your perspective. On whether this show profile of learning will actually improve the education that Minnesota school students are receiving. That's the whole point of it, and there are lots of arguments about the logistics of I didn't local control and so on so forth, but special Focus the shower on weather. In fact this profile of learning will improve education. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call to 276 thousand and the Twin City area to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 and we'll get to some more colors in just a moment. Hello, I'm Nina totenberg. I'm Gokey Roberts. I'm Ray Suarez. This is Robert Siegel. I'm Jean Cochran. I'm Corey flintoff timer on Bob Edwards people, you know voices you trust the news you depend on all made possible when you make a pledge, Minnesota Public Radio with your pledge next week. Your contribution will help pay for the news you defend on. Over the noon hour today, by the way, I hear our second our mid-day. We're off to the National Press Club. Gary Wilson, who is the chairman of Northwest Airlines is speaking at the Press Club today the specific subject having to do with new US Japanese agreement on Aviation, but we're guessing that Wilson will touch in a wide variety of issues affecting Northwest Airlines and that's affecting the state of Minnesota. That's over the noon hour today live coverage of public radio's Main Street radio is supported by the blandin foundation committed to strengthening rural communities and better housing through the Greater Minnesota housing fun casual light snow is forecast for the state of Minnesota in the northern part of Minnesota. Anyway this afternoon partly cloudy in the South today with highs from the mid-twenties in the Northwest and you're 40 in Southeastern Minnesota. Looks like we could get some snow across Minnesota tomorrow and maybe on Sunday as well as cloudy with some flurries and a high of 30 to 35 degrees today right now. It's cloudy and it 24° we're talking this hour about the profile of learning and again particularly interested in hearing from those of you who are actual Frontline teachers this hour to get your perspective on whether this is a good program one that will actually improve the education of Minnesota school students. Fred is online for giving go ahead sir many many years and I'm retired and I have two quick questions as exactly as possible. What would happened to a a b student traditionally and what would happen to a CD student traditionally going to high school with the profile in place? Okay. Well, obviously that would have a lot to do with the with the individual motivation of kids. But certainly the objective is is that kids would no longer be able to graduate super by showing up and putting in very very minimal work. We believe that the that the standard so I will stretch all of our students whether whether those that used to get Seas will now get bees. That's obviously something that would have to be determined at the local level at the point is that that that that the standards are high for all kids and now all kids will have to participate in learning opportunities so that the so that they can demonstrate high levels of proficiency in a number of areas, which they probably never would have been participating before such as some of the more advanced math classes science classes literature programs as well as some of the other Areas of the quick and I'm salt all kids will be accessing more rigorous curriculum and and thereby increasing their learning across a much broader area translated to a non educator. That sounds to me like the C&D student probably will get a better education A&B student while they will they will certainly be given opportunities to to to to access more rigorous are learning programs because because of standards are going to be high for it for all kids. I think even in our current system when when kids were able to access advanced placement courses, for example, if they certainly would have the chance to to really fly, but as I said before advanced placement day is not a learning opportunity that that lot of our kids have access to it. I'd like to change that but I believe that the profile will provide more high standard opportunity. These four for kids are we currently have. I go a little bit different way than profile. I call it portfolio. I chair the higher-end division in the house and what we've seen at some of our higher institution is an emphasis on creating a profile at the student develops as they move through that institution. And then when they're done they have demonstrated in the profile a particular skill that they've gained in with the course or the activity that they've done. Now one of the sad things I thought with the development of the grad Rule and the packages is that it just emphasizes paper on a colossal scale and with the commissioner and I meant about with yesterday is to begin to move to an electronic system that demonstrates if you've done something and video we can put it in if you've done something in text we can put it in you can put the graph again then that is what you take from high school. That's what you take to chill your employer. That's what you take to get into the College of your choice or whatever activity it is. I think I better words portfolio. You better word is just to say that the student should focus on what is it that you did get out of that course. What is it that you got out of that activity that created us killing you or enhance your learning and I I wish that we had pushed harder in the department or something like that rather than these 10237 page packages that are sitting out there that really do if you're going to invest in paper or filing systems that do it now because this thing could really balloon for both Tom your comment. Yes, you are. And what I find is hear the students are always in the negotiation with the T-shirt less homework less work. If you give students to lower grades parent administrators lawyers will complain about it as a circuit with the teacher and the student the teacher give too much work the students complain when we had a national exam in Africa. Then the students to teachers were allies together the student one of the teacher to give him as much work as possible to help him help them attain this this the standard even if the kids were learning things that were not totally irrelevant the right they were learning how to read critically. They were learning how to write quickly. They were learning how to learn Mendes benefit. Thanks for your country's most countries actually do have a national curriculum the United States with it's a very diverse nature is not one of those countries, but turning that discussion has has been taking place for many years, but I think most people would that would rebelled against that type of system in the United States, but there certainly are advocates for that. What about this kind of playing off of that? The rather than these these complex some portfolios are profiles or whatever. They are. Why didn't the state simply say look here or what? We've got an exam for you and I'll just as we have this basic skills. Test. Here's a here's a Statewide exam. It's a tough exam but this is what kids are graduating from high school. I don't know and I don't really care local school district how your children learn this but this is so they got to be able to pass this test to graduate. What was wrong. What would be wrong with that approach before you can test somebody you need to tell them first what it is that you're going to test the month and I think that's the essence of the of the standard side to be able to say this is what we want you to know and now we're going to follow up because there will be additional High School testing that that's in the development of the development phase. So I think we need to do both. I think we need to set the standards and I think we we we need Also to to do the measurement is this pass Arne Carlson Barbershop test you think a few years ago. He said that that any of these education reform programs will fail unless people can easily understand them in a particular a time when parental involvement. That's all you're here and can parents understand. What's what's going on here past the app to the governor's mustard answer is yes, the governor is strongly supportive of this was directly involved in some of the discussion with with the house to come up with this compromise. The governor is a please at this is not a delay that kids will graduate under under these are higher standards. He's pleased if there's going to be the citizens review board which represent a plausky I talked about that will will help to iron out any of the issues at that are still to be to be a dress. So the governor is a strongly supportive of this, you know it Simply got to have higher standards for us for our kids and this doesn't go here in Minnesota and my friends and I we all sit around talk. I worked his boat is the Quality quality of Education really that bad here in Minnesota. We we all seem to get through we all got college degrees now and I'm going to use it more of a problem of teachers his passing kids, you know who didn't ask to do the work. We all did the work we have got their grades education is there for us to get I mean, it was a wonderful education let the sun catch you just didn't come to school then to the things. So, how's this these packets houses whole program going to get kids to become a smarter to get kids to go to school in the past. I mean education is there for you to take if you want it all in and I'll respond first event in my 12 years on the house education committee. What I've seen happened is that granted we may not have the most perfect K through 12 system, but we have always had one. The best in the nation of Premier K through 12 system, but what Minnesota has done curiously is try to correct problems that are nationwide. So if there's a problem in the next National Journal that comes out we always have some Consulting that comes to Minnesota then convinces us that we can cure here whether or not the problem exists and it one of the questions I always asking too many do we have the problem in Minnesota before we implement the Cure and quite often? We don't so we're off keyring something that may happen in Arkansas or Florida or Georgia or New York, but it doesn't happen here. So I think his points well-taken. I think if we just focused on the things that were that we had problems on in Minnesota, we wouldn't get into the vine that we've gotten into with the grad Rule and the profiles of learning should we just scrap this program not scrapped the attempt to raise standards, but Back off take a different approach to achieving those high standards. I think that's one of the issues it'll come up with his advisory committee. How do you modify this to make it make it work? You know you brought up the barbershop test. I got a little different twist to it. If the Educators who implemented can explain it how in the world are the parents going to understand because when we have parent-teacher conferences, we have to be able to explain this thing on a quarter or term basis and right now at least in my school district, you'd be hard-pressed to get more than 10% of the teachers who could actually explain what we're doing with it. If I could just comment on that. I think we do need to do a better job of being able to explain explain it because it is what it is a more complex system then we currently have but I'll bet that that if we got a number of folks together and ask them independently to explain social studies and literature. They would come up with answers all over the map. So there is Consensus really on our current system either go to a couple more teachers are on the line pay go ahead place. You coming to make a Time implementing a standard in my classroom Red Wing of the pilots right in front of all training cannot be accomplished in fragmented workshops when I had my training last August. It was a week-long. It was very challenging. It was very frustrating was very stimulating was very intense. And since that time I've been implementing a studio or a performance package. Our first attempts are really skewed because their students have traditionally been asked to either know or do but rarely have they been asked to do both and now we're asking for both after implementing it since September, I believe that all of my students from the lowest to the highest have benefited from being personally accountable because they must do more personal reflection and lots more writing more analysis and it does require more from me as a teacher because of this profolio process which requires me to pay attention to students one by one. I currently have a hundred and thirty-five students every day and it's not I'm done in a 40 50 or even a 60 hour work week and I think that's an issue that really has to be taken care of and closing. I'd like to say that I don't want to have a state curriculum. I think it's much better to be personally invested in what I do in the classroom, but I do think that we need to give it a fair shake and people who haven't tried. It really ought to temper their remark because they're not doing it and if they haven't really studied it or if they've only had a chance to study it and a half day workshop while they're thinking about their grades that are doing the office the next morning. They have not been given a fair shake and we need to give all of the teachers of fair shake with the intense training that will really prepare them for understanding what we're trying to do that I hear from teachers wherever I go. I'm in school districts every week that the that they have never seen kids work as hard as they have under under these under these portfolios Mary. Future on the line go ahead place has that. I think that reform should be ongoing and I'm a big believer and and has seen really good teachers always evaluating what they're doing and whether they're getting through the students and how they're responding and this reform seems to be pretty politically motivated. None of the teachers. I know in the cities are in the area or know anybody who has a teacher who was that that table to prepare these performance packages. I think there are underlying issues of criticizing teachers that we're not doing our jobs when I think most of us are doing a wonderful job. I'd like to see more parents do their jobs to I think that there is some kind of believe that anybody can teach and many of us have ethical concerns about the rating system that's being used that we've been told that no student can really earn a four. Simpson work is rated 1 to 4. And I think that's a big apical concern doesn't really get rid of paper tests. We've been told and and now there's some change that we can't create our own performance packages. So I just have major concerns about this. And again, I'm invested in being a great teacher and then really meeting the needs of my students. Are you think let me ask you this Mary. I do you think I if this program were fully adopted to everybody up to speed would it improve the education that students are receiving the reforms I think that there is something going to put our good many of the packages. I seen don't seem to be created by people who know how students learn it doesn't really eliminate paper. So I wouldn't improve education standards in all cases or For that it does what what was hoped, you know that wondering how this applies just a public schools not to private schools and parochial schools right for public schools many private schools that attend a workshop Center also implementing the the system as well as art and music involved in a requirement. And then the other thing I want to say is that I have a couple of nieces and not International Baccalaureate program at Southwest a mini and the explanation that their parents were given from the school was that that do you know, this would really mess up their ibp program and I'm wondering why If you're in an international Baccalaureate why that wouldn't just the plant all of that for those particular students question number one art music included in the new standards. Yeah. Absolutely. They are and why doesn't this if if the kids are in the in the high-test programs? Why don't they just do that and forget about this other stuff? Basically they do. I'm not sure who they does the message that this will cause problems with IB IB is as is a pee very very rigorous. You can lay those courses out and plant the state of Standards. We call him bedded the state standards any in any number of ways into into those programs. For example of certainty AP about social studies and history has the meats of surname monister all of the the standard requirements as well as some of the other standard such as the increased standard what we wanted to know how to do research how to develop papers from From research it and tornadoes types of things several standards can be met in and in one of the of the rigorous courses that kids are taking is there a we don't have a lot of time left, but there aren't there are a lot of different areas subject areas. If you will that are that are covered under this program. Are there too many should you narrow it down a little bit would that help diffuse some of the debate over there should be just focus on science and math and history whatever it is and and Skip some of the the inquiry and decision-making in the rest of that make any difference of the things the advisory committees going to have to take a look at because when you're looking at 24 and maybe twenty-seven if you throw in the 3 optional and then if you look at the variations of the been done on the 24th has caused confusion and that confusion. I mean we have to settle on it. I personally think there are too many and it has to be slim down what she brought up though. It is another example of a how you going to handle this thing when you got those courses Radium play sand and I think the department has to be absolutely clear. Now that we can align current curriculum Weatherby AP International Baccalaureate to the standards. But then when you do that one of the messages that came out early to you could only have one or two per course. Well, I think you can have four five in some of these will have them so I don't think you should set limits should not have been said at the beginning or the impression should not have been given to Minnesota public education that that you needed to but but now she brought up the private schools. There were amendments drafted by members to apply this to the private schools that we're not offered in education, but are still lingering out there now, they won't be offered this session obviously because we're past the committee section, but I think the folks in private schools are going to have to watch to is this proceeds because you're going to see in the next legislative session. I think those same members offering legislation to apply it by law to the privates. We only have a minute left the house just going to play on This session but we're hopeful that at the compromise that we reach with the house will carry forward and that that that will become law on or about April 15th, which would allow all the schools to phase this and rather than that the phase and doesn't that mean that the kids in the year 2002 will not graduate under Under the Sea Under the standard. We were emphatic that we did. We did not support a delay and that's in the house did not do that. They did they did say but those districts that want to move quicker and quite frankly the vast vast majority of Minnesota school districts. Tell me we're not going to slow this time. We're going to we're going to do this full-bore come come September 1st. So so we're pleased with the with the house compromise and looking forward to working with with represent to plow skin other colleagues to it to get this done done, right and then working with the citizens advisory Council to the clean up any areas that need to be cleaned up over the next. And very briefly a represent ploski. Are you confident that with the phase in with a compromise and with this committee overseeing things that some of the problems that people have been expressing? Will they be taken care of? I think we'll have a much better understanding of where we are with the system by September of next year. Once that advisory committee begins its work because there will be a place for individuals in the state to go and express their concerns. And the makeup of that advisory committee has all of the vested interest groups at the table talking the other thing is has his money to focus on the developments. And yes you already hurt if you can't instruct the teachers had to do it. It can't be done. Thank you, sir. Appreciate your coming and thank you. Mr. Commissioner. Bob wait'll commissioner of the Department of Children families and learning and Winona State Representative Jane pawlowski who teaches advanced placement social studies at Wenonah High School. Saturday at 5 it's a special for our broadcast of classic moments from A Prairie Home Companion with Garrison Keillor. You'll hear about Lutheran's on Saint Patrick's Day LA influenza Dusty and Lefty guys all star shoe band Bruno the fishing dog Tom Keith and Chicken Little and much much more. That's the best of Garrison Keillor and A Prairie Home Companion Saturday from 5 to 9 on all NPR stations. Don't miss 5 minutes before 12 time for Garrison's Writer's Almanac.