(00:00:01) Our topic during the hour today is space exploration in the first part of the broadcast will here Admiral Richard truly the administrator of NASA who spoke (00:00:11) yesterday at the national Press Club in Washington at the same time as we were listening to a live Minnesota meeting broadcast of Martin feldstein. (00:00:19) Unfortunately, the wheels fell off (00:00:21) as they say in the second part of the Press Club broadcast in the question-and-answer session. There were some audio problems which simply could not be remedied and sold less than a day's notice University of Minnesota (00:00:33) physicist. Robert. Pepin has shifted his (00:00:36) schedule around and is going to be in the studio with me to talk about some of the issues raised in truly speech and to answer your questions as (00:00:44) well about space exploration. (00:00:47) But to begin with we do at least have the the speech from the Press Club Yesterday administrator Richard truly from NASA the first astronaut to have the space agency. He was the pilot of the space shuttle Columbia in 1981 commander of the Challenger in 1983. He speaks to the Press Club about some challenges ahead for the space program and here now is Peter Holmes with a more (00:01:11) complete introduction of Admiral truly. You might say that Admiral truly has the right stuff. He has more than 300 carrier Landings to his credit. He has been an instructor at the air force test pilot school at Edwards Air Force Base. He is a recipient of the distinguished flying cross has to navis NASA space flight medals and has one aviation's top honor the Collier Trophy twice. Admiral truly is the first astronaut to had the space agency having piloted the shuttle Columbia in 1981, and he was commander of Challenger on a Six-Day mission in 1983 under his leadership. NASA has recovered. Its Compass lost following the Challenger disaster. He was as was reconfirmed this week with the safe return of Atlantis. The space shuttle shuttle program is back on track in part due to the dedication of Richard truly and his team many of whom include former astronauts and speaking of former's I can't help but note that X Navy men are running a quite a bit around Washington today at Nasa at the FAA at the energy department. And of course at the White House Richard truly is here to tell us what challenges lie ahead for the Space Program. Please join me in giving a warm Press Club. Welcome to Admiral Richard truly administrator of NASA. Thank you very much. And Peter. Thank you for having me here. I must tell you that I'm delighted to be invited to the National Press Club. This Podium is sought because of the unique Forum that it provides is Eric sevareid noted when he said goodbye here in 1977. The national Press Club is heard from presidents from Kings from generals and Admirals from dictators and candidates over these 80-plus years. This Podium is also seen my predecessors those interested in aviation and space flight and exploration the heart and The Business of NASA. Some of them spoke to you even before your first weekly luncheon speaker appeared formerly in 1932 president-elect Franklin D Roosevelt. Orville Wright spoke to the National Press Club Charles Lindbergh was here too. And so was Admiral Peary? Oh, if only their words had been preserved I'll bet they told exciting tales of the present and looked beyond the problems of the day at the crystal ball. Right and Lindbergh remind us of NASA's Origins. Remember the first a in NASA stands for Aeronautics NASA evolved from the nation's Aeronautics aeronautical research organization the Nash National advisory committee for Aeronautics that the United States created in Orville and Wilbur rights time to this day this part of our mission Remains the Same basic research on the very Cutting Edge of Aeronautics and airplanes. I wonder what Orville might think today if he visited one of our NASA Aeronautics centers where they're working on a national air space plane that someday will take off from a Runway fly to orbit and then land like a conventional plane. Simultaneously we have revised revived research on a high-speed civil transport, which studies show will serve a large commercial Market particularly in the Pacific Basin during the first quarter of The Next Century just as yesterday's NASA research has led to today's quite jet engines are research in the 1990s will lead to environmentally sound supersonic travel for the future and I might add provide American industry a Competitive Edge to share in this Marketplace Marketplace. I think that perhaps nothing else that NASA and its predecessor agency the NACA have done have so benefited this country as has Aeronautics research the new technology. We have developed over the years as enabled the US airspace industry to maintain an unqualified lead in World Markets Aerospace industry sales and service has remained the brightest spot in our balance of trade picture. This past Monday. I stood on a California desert lake bed and watch the space shuttle Atlantis land from orbit. I could not help but think about the extraordinary progress that American Technology has built on a bridge so rapidly from the sand dunes of Kitty Hawk and Orville and Wilbur's first fragile cloth and wooden airplane to this new frontier of space that we now reach fairly routinely with thunderous and wondrous machines. During the mission that ended Monday our Atlantis men and women took an important step along a road that leads to new golden age of Space Science. They deployed into space the most sophisticated robotic spacecraft ever built Galileo will eventually go into orbit around the giant planet Jupiter and also Drop app lobe a probe to learn the composition of its violent atmosphere. But even as Galileo was being deployed Magellan was already well on its way floating silently towards its mission to create a radar map of the surface of the planet Venus through its shroud of clouds rich in sulfuric acid. Meanwhile further out little Voyager to having finished its historic tour of the outer solar system giant planets with its August encounter at the planet. Neptune is on its way to find the edge of our Sun's influence the very beginning of interstellar space in the next few weeks. We will launch the cosmic background Explorer the Explorer on a mission to look for the missing parts of the universe this coming spring the Space Shuttle Discovery will deploy the first of our space-based great observatories the Hubble Space Telescope, which will allow us to peer back virtually to the beginning of time. Later, next year Ulysses will set off to examine the poles of the sun and the Mars Observer destined for the red planet will launch in 1992. Later craft will fly with a comet and examine an asteroid and Cassini will finally go into orbit around Saturn taking us on a journey of this mysterious planet and it's fascinating rings. In all 37 extraordinary space science missions in the next five years counting the recent launches of Magellan and Galileo we expected when the five years is done is done. We will have launched not only 37 signs space missions. We will have initiated an era of scientific exploration that will radically change our understanding not only of the universe but also of ourselves. While the robots are on their way to the far solar system or take up their posts to search for quasars neutron stars and black holes a comparable effort to look back at Earth from space will be gathering momentum mounting concern about the global environment caused by reports of ozone depletion global warming destruction of the rainforests expanding deserts and all the rest has spurred our nation to act until the Space Age. We could view our planet only in fragments much like the story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant by feel from space with Superior new instruments. We can take a comprehensive look at the lands the oceans and the eyes In other words, we finally have the capability to examine the entire global system an international program to do this to do just this is taking shape NASA's part of it is called mission to planet Earth and when it is in full flower of the data gathered will be coordinated in a decades-long effort to better understand our fragile Earth. There's a close relationship between the men and women of the space program and the robots that they take to and maintained in space whether they are to look up at the stars or back at Earth. humans bring to space qualities That computers and remote sensors can never provide Insight the ability to make leaps of inference and the ability to term obstacles into triumphs of the intellect. Nowhere is a proper mix of men women and robots more evident than in the space shuttle program. With six successful flights under our belt since the return to flight I can tell you that I am pleased and proud We Are highly confident moving with determination towards safely building our flight rate. The shuttle is unquestionably a far safer and much more reliable vehicle than before the Challenger accident. But remember spaceflight like Aviation is an indie inherently risky business. We cannot totally remove that risk, except by staying timidly on the ground. That is simply not our nature. We choose to assess the risk and then take it because of the achievements that stand on the other side the space shuttle continues to be our key to the to our access to space. It is our Workhorse our Conestoga wagon. It allows us to launch retrieve and service sophisticated payloads. It provides a platform for microgravity research and life science investigations. It is critical in the construction of space station freedom. We continue to invest in product improvements to the shuttle to enhance its safety and its performance and its quality. Today those improvements take the shape of the advanced solid rocket motor which will be safer and give us more lift and extended duration Orbiter to give us more time in each flight in space and we're studying the shuttle C C stands for cargo a freighter version to give us heavy lift capability in an unmanned mode. Meanwhile we're depending heavily on America's commercial sector to provide launch services to us using Expendable rockets for Cargoes that do not require human intervention all the things about NASA that I've talked about. So far are things that we do today and you should take great satisfaction and pride from them, but we must not allow ourselves to become content. If we do that we will find ourselves stuck on a plateau. It is time to continue America's advance to establish a permanent manned presence in space with an American initiative that Embraces a multitude of international partners. Space station freedom is the Cornerstone to our future in space without it the future we dream of will never become the present that we experience. No doubt. You remember America's 1970s experiment with our first base station called Skylab you have read about the Soviets mere these efforts pale in comparison in size and capability of space station Freedom freedoms. Working quarters will be five times the size of accommodations on the mirror and it will produce 10 times XI electrical power as scallion allowing the pursuit of peaceful scientific and Technology Endeavors. Never before possible other countries will attach sizable Laboratories and contribute sophisticated equipment together with our partners in Canada in Europe and Japan. We are embarked on nothing less than the largest International Cooperative Space Project ever undertaken. Space station will provide us the first large facility in space for long term highly Advanced activities using it will be able to continue the advances in research and to remain an international leader in space derived work. Our scientists will be able to search for new medicines to fight the world's diseases new extra strong and very lightweight Alloys and large advances in telerobotic operations the marriage of men and machine. In the longer term any and evolved space station is the First Essential step toward moving again beyond Earth orbit into the solar system. It will provide us new insights into the human body and psyche as we cope with longer direct durations of spaceflight. It will allow us to test exploration Technologies and to assemble and to service larger space vehicles. For centuries people of many many civilizations have dreamed of extending human presence beyond the Earth of journeying to other planets and Beyond reaching out to the planets is no longer just a dream. It is an objective of the United States government and is reflected in our national space policy adopted in early 1988 and recently affirmed by the National Space Council. This space policy now being reviewed by the by President Bush sets forth goals and objectives to guide all us efforts in space. One of the goals is Crystal Clear. We will quote expand human presence and activity beyond Earth orbit into the solar system. President Bush has taken the all-important next step speaking on the 20th anniversary of the Apollo 11 Mission the president announced a commitment to human activity beyond Earth orbit. with the words that I believe will stand the test of time the president said I am proposing a long-range continuing commitment first for the coming decade for the 1990s space station. Freedom are critical next step in all our space Endeavors and next for the new century back to the Moon Back to the Future and this time back to stay. And then a journey into tomorrow a journey to another planet a manned mission to Mars. With these words the president has charted our course. He has answered the question. Where is our space program going? First we're developing space station freedom is a foundation for all that follows. Then we're going back to the moon and then we're going to Mars. In addition to committing to a return to the moon and a subsequent Journey to Mars President Bush asked the vice president to lead the National Space Council in determining what is needed for this next round of space exploration under the leadership of the vice president. The council will be exploring the requirements for people material and money realistic timetables and missions will be assessed NASA is very hard at work to support vice president Quayle and the National Space Council. Part of the discussion most certainly will deal with the subject of international cooperation. The United States has many spacefaring partners and our friends abroad have developed highly capable Space Systems that could mesh well with our own and Cooperative Endeavors directed at Future exploration. The work is proceeding exceptionally well in my view and while these Expeditions will be technically demanding and certainly not without risk and very difficult. I believe they are well within our grasp We're going to the return to the moon and Journey to Mars because we must because the United States needs to challenge itself in order to be ready for the new world of the 21st century now just over 10 years away. These Expeditions will stimulate new technologies and enhance our nation's long-term economic productivity. They will improve in a very measurable way our national competitiveness. They will advance scientific knowledge and lead to discoveries about our solar system our Earth and about life itself. And they will spur science math and engineering education in America is are you that both challenged and inspired by the adventure of exploration and by new knowledge of our home planet Earth a few weeks ago. I was privileged to attend and participate in the president's education Summit with the governor's at Charlottesville. There is a new determination across our land to improve our educational system. I feel strongly that NASA has a special responsibility in education for a very simple reason our programs airplanes spaceships planets, Moon Mars and astronauts. Our programs can get two kids. They say that ghosts can do it. Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs can do it in space can do it. I predict that no other benefit of this endeavor will Loom so large. The value to our nation of this remarkable program of human exploration will be simply enormous. It will far outstrip the benefits that we can imagine today. The total value perhaps will never be measured for how can one measure knowledge success in Prime benefits cannot always be Quantified. How do we calculate the cost benefits of a decision in the future by bright student to pursue a career in science that leads to a discovery that impacts Millions. Equally important future missions to the moon and to Mars will continue the remarkable American journey of exploration into flight begun over 80 years ago at Kitty Hawk. Space exploration both manned and unmanned is an Endeavor in which our country excels our flag still flies on the moon and photographs of Neptune are ours forever. Exploration is a human imperative one deeply rooted in American history. This new commitment responds to that imperative worthy of our heritage the return to the moon and the Journey to Mars signal in America whose people retain the vision courage and skills essential to National well-being in the 21st century. Each time we go to the frontier and Beyond we bring back more than we hoped for this time. We have the chance to bring back more than we can imagine. Thank you very much for the opportunity to be here with you at lunch today NASA continues to be an exciting doing agency and it's one that I love to be at and I'm pleased to be leading for the next short period of time. Thank you very much. (00:22:53) That was Admiral Richard truly administrator of NASA the National Aeronautics and Space Administration speaking yesterday at the national Press Club in Washington. Of course, the way the Press Club ordinarily works. There's a question and answer session with a guest which follows but for some reason there was a technical problem with the feed yesterday. The sound quality was just something that we could not broadcast (00:23:13) today. And so fortunately (00:23:15) we were able to persuade. Dr. Robert Pepin to come over to our studios in St. Paul and finish off the are chatting with him about some aspects of the Space Program Professor. Thanks a lot for rearranging things. I had a technical problem to on my way here. I got lost in downtown st. Paul and spent 15 minutes hopping from constructional obstacle to obstacle. However, it gave me time to listen to the first part of Admiral truly speech Yes getting lost in downtown st. Paul is a happens to many people who are not from here. Anyway doctor papen is here and we'll open up the phone lines for your questions for him about the Space Program. He has been a NASA advisory for a number of years. He's currently on a on a committee which is going to help design some smaller space missions, and he served also on the committee which reviewed the Galileo probe before it went up. So if you have any questions about the Space Program, here's your opportunity to to 76 thousand in the Twin Cities area and one 865 297004 those of you outside. Minneapolis st. Paul I'm really curious about the Galileo probe to begin with because of course there was the lawsuit about it and and the concerned by some environmentalists that had there been a disaster of some kind it could have spewed this tremendously dangerous plutonium material all around the world. What are your thoughts about that? Well, it's it's it's not a matter that should be dismissed out of hand these rate so called radio thermal generators on Galileo. And in fact on all previous deep space missions are each loaded. There are two of them on Galileo with 25 pounds of plutonium oxide and plutonium is dangerous. Not only because it's radioactive because but because it's physiologically toxic. I thought that it was an issue that deserved a public airing and certainly deserve very close scrutiny within NASA itself for safety considerations, the the design of those radio thermal generators since the Challenger explosion has gone through an exhaustive. Internal review within the agency and within very high levels of the federal government. The design was essentially to protect it against anything resembling the highest energy disaster that they could imagine happening to that probe interestingly enough an explosion on the launch pad or an explosion doing during a sin on the shuttle as of the Challenger explosion type is in the parlance of explosive technology a benign explosion. It's almost a rapid combustion rather than an explosion and there was absolutely no doubt in my mind that any launch pad accident or any accident during Ascent would not have compromised the containers of the rtgs in any way whatsoever. What could be a more severe kind of explore more severe kind has to do with the trajectory that that Galileo is following as you may know because of safety considerations, the liquid-fueled rocket that was to propel Galileo directly from Earth. Jupiter was ruled off the shuttle because it was considered to be too dangerous. We had to replace that with a solid fuel rocket, which is not as powerful means we had to redesign the trajectory for the spacecraft and now instead of going directly to Jupiter. It goes first to Venus picks up what's called a gravity assist to increase its speed at Venus comes back and loops around the earth picking up more gravity assist goes out to the asteroid belt comes back and loops around the earth again to pick up yet a little more energy. And now it finally has enough energy to go to directly to Jupiter from that second Earth encounter the most hazardous part of the mission in terms of the plutonium are those two encounters with Earth because they happen at very high velocity and if the trajectory is wrong and the spacecraft accidentally hits the planet then there is a then there is an an an event of sufficient energy that is something hitting the upper atmosphere with with at high speed that could cause a much more intense explosive environment. And something happening on the launch pad or during shuttle asset. Now. The agency was very well aware of this problem and there are fail-safes designed into the what's called fault protection does designed into the trajectory of the spacecraft which appears reliable and certain to prevent to close encounter. Shall we put but that actually is the real danger point of the nation not the a cent a lot of other issues that we can talk about about the space program a number of folks on the line with questions and let's get to the college here at about half past the hour. Go ahead you're on the air with dr. Pepper. I have a couple of questions the first thing you just mentioned those loops around Venus and Earth each time you do that you are increasing your variables and more chance for a navigational error. Do you have some kind of a thrusters on the on the craft? And how are they powered? And the other thing I'm wondering is are in regards to the Soviet space program. They spend a (00:28:08) lot more time in orbit than we have (00:28:10) how forthcoming of they've been with medical data. And what are the major? (00:28:13) Calls that I had weaknesses in our (00:28:16) in our long-term efforts the other the other thing this idea of that we're going to take care of over population by colonizing space. I think you get anyone could work out the (00:28:27) economics on that as a silly idea, (00:28:30) but I'll show you I'll hang up and let you answer any of those questions. You can remember sure got them all on the Galileo trajectory. Yes, there are thrusters on the spacecraft 12 of them as a matter of fact, and they now have all been successfully fired and tested they're designed to make what are called mid-course Corrections on the spacecraft to slightly adjust its orbit. They're all working fine. They're extremely precise and the degree to which the trajectory of the spacecraft is monitored from the earth and absolutely incredible Precision allows them to guide the spacecraft and with a considerable degree of redundancy because with 12th thrusters, they're there. They only have a couple of pounds thrust of Peace even if some of Go out one still has spacecraft control. Those thrusters have been very carefully examined and and tested for reliability. Actually some problems were found with them before Galileo lift it lift it off, but that problem has been solved. So I have quite a high degree of confidence that that the mid-course corrections and the orbit itself will be very safely designed during this Mission. Okay. Now, how about the Soviet space program? Yes coming here. They've been about the extremely forthcoming and and it is clear from from our own experience and from from the data that they share so freely at least these days with us that there are profound medical problems and long-term exposure to to very low levels of gravitation. One of the principal physiological problems is well are to actually one tends to be psychological and it really isn't intimately connected with with being in space. It's more connected with being confined in a very very small. Amount of space for very long periods of time which is I think a legitimate psychological concern for an eight or nine month Mission to Mars. However, that is really a weight at the moment by the physiological problems in the most severe of which appears to be decalcification of bone. The human body responds in a very interesting way to external circumstances and when the body finds itself in a zero gravity environment, it sort of assumes that the structural support for the human skeleton is no longer no longer needs to be as robust as it has to be on the surface of the Earth and the bonus begin to weaken by shedding calcium and there have already been documented cases of extreme calcium loss and Bone weakness in long-term Soviet soldiers and space eight or nine or months or even a year the solution to this problem, even though they have tried exercycle zand all sorts of things in orbit, maybe in the long term that we will have to spin the spacecraft to provide an artificial gravitational environment. I personally consider that that is the single greatest obstacle to the current planning. Let us say for a mission to Mars. There are certain medical problems that chiefly among them that have to be overcome. How would you spend the spacecraft and still keep it maneuverable, etc. Etc. And how fast would it have to spin? Well, it has to be fairly large. If it's not to spend too fast one could take a small spacecraft for example the size of Galileo and and spin it sufficiently fast so that on the inside of the outside skin of the spacecraft there's one gravitation. There's one gravity of centripetal acceleration. This is the essentially it relates to the force exerted on You by a string the other end of which is a ball or an Apple at you're twirling in a circle around your head. You can see that there are obvious forces there. So it is possible to create pseudo gravitational forces by simply spinning. Unfortunately. The rate of spin is something as small as Galileo would have to be enormously high and also get considering the size of that spacecraft your feet would In zero gravity at the center of the spacecraft in your head would be at one gravity and I would not like to think of both the psychological and physiological effects of that. So spacecraft designed to spend probably have to be two or three hundred meters across in other words, probably Dimensions comparable to that of a football field so that they can spin at some fraction of a revolution per minute and still provide sufficient gravity far out on the end of the spinning arm. That's not a trivial design problem at all. But it may in the long run be necessary in which case our spacecraft will look absolutely nothing like they look now, that's for sure final question from the caller had to do with dealing with the overpopulation problem on Earth by colonizing space, which she thought was ridiculous. I couldn't agree with him more what will happen of course is a space colonies eventually will be set up and they will manage to populate themselves without any help from us. Absolutely. Let's move on to our next question are here for dr. Robert Pepin. Hello there. (00:33:07) I had read an article in a magazine a few years ago about a joint venture between the United States and Soviet Union. In going to Mars and landing on one of their moons. I was wondering what the name of that project is and the status of it and which moon they planned on laminate landing on (00:33:22) their to actually two elements of that cooperation at and I should add by the way that the to space career at space programs of these two nations are now working very close harmony with each other the the mission to one of the Martian moons was essentially only a Soviet Mission and it has already flown. Unfortunately not with terribly good results because they launched two spacecraft both of which were were to not only map the planet Mars but to run the wou with a small inner Moon of Mars Phobos, which is only about 10 miles across so it's a mini Moon and get within 50 yards of the surface examine the surface very carefully drop a little robotic instruments that would hop around the surface making chemical analyses at various points of the two spacecraft. They launched They lost because of a controller early in the flight. It turns out that a mistake in command was sent to that spacecraft and it the command was to rotate and in rotating it lost its guidance system and its solar panels were no longer illuminated by the sun and it froze to death within the next three or four hours. We never got contact with it. Again. The second spacecraft actually did about 60% of the things that it was supposed to do on Mars, but as it approached the moon Phobos, it it malfunctioned and and the Soviets lost that one as well. So the close-up encounter with Phobos and never happened. Now the longer-range cooperation between the two Nations two Nations has to do with future investigation of the planet Landing little vehicles on the planet itself instead of on the instead of on one of its moons to actually float balloons through the Martian atmosphere. The Martian atmosphere is not very dense. It's only about 1% as dense as our atmosphere, but it will still support a big balloon and one can see These balloons wandering over the surface blown by the winds on that planet. This area of cooperation is quite intense at the moment. There's a great deal of planning going on both by NASA and by the the Soviet Academy and there's a considerable degree of cooperation between the two the National Academy of Sciences has recently produced a report which which sets out the boundary conditions for cooperation in this type of exploration between the two Nations for the next 10 or 15 years. And I think it's almost inevitable that in reacting to President Bush's call for a manned exploration of Mars. I should say I piloted exploration of Mars since man is now considered to be overly sexist and quite quite properly. So that that project is so long range. So complicated and above all so expensive that I my personal opinion is that will never happen unless two or three or four of the major spacefaring Nations on Earth coordinates. Need such an effort and do it together. The one you're talking about between the Soviets and the United States where they send the balloons through the Martian atmosphere that that would be that would be not operated by human beings know this would all be robotic and I should mention by the way that the balloons were designed by the French. So they're also in on the game. It's actually it would probably be at least two three and possibly four nations involved in the long-range exploration program, including Europe Soviet Union the United States and Japan next question, please on the Space Program. Dr. Robert. Pepin is listening and you're on with (00:36:43) him. Yes. This is a question about values in philosophy. I'm wondering about the basis for the absolutism that was displayed throughout the rhetoric of what we have just heard that the future of mankind must be in outer space. Some of us believe that the knowledge we have to improve the quality of life for all five billion people now on Earth soon to be 10 billion dollars or 10 billion, but which we lack the will to do why is it so flatly stated that man absolutely must journey to outer space while there's 5 billion are suffering a very inadequate standard of living and we'll be doing so in the foreseeable future (00:37:29) you you put your finger on on a problem that I think is haunted not only the space program but almost any scientific Endeavor or in any Endeavor that is not seemingly directly related to a sociological needs on this planet first. Let me say that I hope it isn't 10 billion people within the next two or three decades, but I'm forced to agree with you that it probably will be as far as the absolutism that you detected an admiral truly speech remember that Is essentially an advocate for a particular kind of program that's his business to run NASA under such circumstances people often sound very convinced that the course that they're designing is the absolute right and unique course for humankind. I think that the real basis over my own feeling that space exploration is an inevitable part of human activity is simply that we are in exploring creature. And if you look back through human history you find that there's always some element of the population that must explore whatever Frontiers exist on the planet or in this case Beyond it. I think the substantive question here is not the human urge for exploration which by the way has led to much of the progress of the race over recorded history, but simply the cost and the assessment of the balance of those costs between such activities and sociological needs on Earth and there. We now come down to a matter of personal opinion. About which of the two is likely to benefit humankind most in the long run and I'm afraid I can answer that question only for myself. I consider that exploration of any kind and at the current outer Frontier of space exploration of space is an essential part of human activity move on now to your question. Dr. Pepin is listening. Thank you for waiting. Go ahead, (00:39:20) please. Yes, I'm Nadia three-part question here. My first part part is about the solar Max probe. I've heard that this probes orbit is deteriorating and I'm wondering what effect this is going to happen or observations. (00:39:33) All right. Your next question will just write these down here as we go along. (00:39:37) Okay. Secondly, I'd heard about a sealed environment experiment and I believe Arizona. It's just supposed to be a long term experiment something along three years as morning if you have any information on this. All right, finally. I had also heard that NASA offers Voyager photographic reproductions, and if you had an address I can contact with us. Thank you. (00:40:00) Well, let's let's try I don't know very much about the solar Max probe. I can well believe that it's that's Urban is deteriorating there. There has been a past solar observational probe that suffered a more drastic fate than re-entry. It was used in one of the early SDI tests and was destroyed by by ballistically as part of an early on early test an action that did not so terribly well with the scientists who were monitoring the instruments on that on that spacecraft, but let me hasten to point out. It was a military satellite and and and the and the civilian science investigators were sort of Simply bootlegging experiments on it still it was rather sad if solar probe does re-enter, then it will burn up in the upper atmosphere and it will be gone. So in that sense you could say that the effect on the observations will be drastic the field experiment in Arizona. That's that's an extremely interesting one. It's essentially an experiment to look at the long-term physiological and ice and and psychological. Of long-term isolation in a self-contained environment smaller smaller scale efforts do this such as confining people in caves for three or four months have already been carried out. This one. However is much more ambitious in that the Arizona experiment involves a completely self-contained ecosystem. So there will be no entry or exit from that for the three. I believe it is three year duration of the experiment and there are several robust courageous adventurous volunteers who are going to try this, how do they keep from going nuts and mean to put it quite bluntly. Well the walls of this are made of a particular kind of plastic is transparent and so they can watch the sun rise and set around the Tucson mountains. I don't quite know what else they do it in a way though. It's an important kind of experiment gets back to what we were talking about before Bob and that is the effects of long-term isolation and in a in a small, but in this case self-contained environment course any space environment Going to have to be self-contained as well. It will be interesting to hear whether any screams issue from from Arizona say after the first 18 months of the project by now about photos of the voyage. I can't give you a specific address, but I'll tell you there are there are there are two two suggestions one is one could always write to the public affairs officer of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in Washington DC and that would be enough of an address that will get to them simply make your request there. The other is to write to the jet propulsion laboratory in Pasadena, California. And as I recall their dresses 4800 Oak Grove Drive Pasadena, and I forgotten the zip, but you can look that up and they've been handling the Voyager Mission and they would have the first run of any press photographs and perhaps you're particularly interested in the recent Neptune encounter. Those photographs are now available. I know I just got some slides of my first Neptune photographs. I haven't even had a chance to look at them yet, but Are those two addresses and I think both of those addresses are sufficient to get your letter to them. It would certainly give you information on how to obtain photographs. We have about 15 minutes left here talking to dr. Robert Pepin about the Space Program. He is advisor to NASA in a couple of areas anyway, and we'll move on to your question. Now you're on the air. (00:43:18) Thank you. My question concerns the ethics and values of a space program. And first let me say that I identify with the science scientific approach in some ways. You know, I mean the need to explore obviously this is something that is always going to be a need of ours but also also our need of ours is is rather more selfish in the sense that we're using science as a means of Destruction, and I think I point out for example, the Star Wars set up the fact that we're using science more as a way of destroying the Earth and is enhancing it so you're concerned about the military use of space through the potential that mean and using and especially in the case of I think President Bush using the the desire to explore and to expand as simple rhetoric for you know, less less peaceful interests. Okay. Dr. Pepin. What are your thoughts? (00:44:27) Well a very fundamental way I agree. I don't regard that as a rationale for abandoning scientific efforts of any kind. There is no question that they have either consciously or inadvertently been misused and the impact both on the the interaction among nations. And on the environment has been severe and probably will continue to be severe. It's always very difficult. When you are a scientist to separate the the actual investigation of what is true and how nature works with the uses to which the results of those investigations are put we're looking on one side at what I would call the scientific sphere of human activity on the other the political sphere and I couldn't agree more with the with a listener who suggests that the ethics and values of scientific research, which Do not question have resulted in discoveries that have been politically misused whether we will ever learn not to do this is a question that I think is a fundamental one for the races a whole how much of the Space Program over the next several years is going to be military-related. I know the next I think it's the discovery mission is going to be a military flight in his speech little oil that we heard a little while earlier Admiral truly talked about a whole variety of things. He didn't mention him any military ones. I think one of the Prime reasons for that is the military the the long-term association between the military and NASA is ending the partly as a result of what happened to the Challenger Mission, the military has decided that shuttle launches for military payloads are both too hazardous to unreliable and too expensive to adequately serve what they perceive to be their needs. So Military activity in space will shift almost exclusively within the next two or three years to unmanned rocket launches. There is a side benefit quite apart from the from the political and military questions. There's a side benefit to the civilian Space Program of that decision because that means that the production lines for these large Rockets will once again Gear Up and some of those Rockets will be purchased by NASA to launch space missions in the future actually a much more efficient way to launch unmanned robotic probes than using the shuttle simply because the shuttle is expensive and it is also man rated and generally these spacecraft do not need the attention of of of human presence in orbit essentially all the the crew of Atlantis did was sort of boot Galileo over the side and that can be done equally well by an unmanned rocket the the whole question though the military presence in space and and and its intensity over the next few years. Is one that I don't really know very much about and I think that's not accidental. The point to be made. Is that the skies if we can still use that for something two or three hundred miles out our full of military surveillance satellites and will continue to be unless we have such a complete and rather unlikely rapprochement with all other nations on Earth that they're considered to be unnecessary. The only thing I can say for sure is that NASA is essentially getting out of that business and will become genuinely a civilian space program and can be judged and entirely on that in terms of what it does and what it doesn't let us move on to our next listener who's been waiting to put your question to Robert Pepper now, go ahead please. (00:48:10) Hello. Could you discuss the ways in which General Electric benefits from the Galileo Mission and also future missions having to do with SBI. And also when will the Hubble Space Telescope be launched? Thank you. (00:48:24) I don't know much about the first one General Life. It does happen to be the manufacturer of the radio thermal generators the ones with the 25 pounds of plutonium in them. And I suppose one could say that they benefit economically the more of those they sell they they are also I believe in the space craft construction business, but I'm afraid I'm rather ignorant about the extent to which General Electric serves as subcontractor for much of the much of the agencies spacecraft business. I do know that they manufacture the radio thermal generators the second question Bob, I forgot Hubble 100. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes Hubble Is Now scheduled for spring of 1990 and even though I am not an astronomer, I personally consider that to be one of the most exciting missions of the last several years notwithstanding Galileo, which is more in line with my scientific instruments Hubble with its large telescope in orbit free of the influence of the Earth's atmosphere and the wiggle that this causes an astronomic images. We'll be able to look farther out into space and more and further back in time than anything we have ever been able to do from Earth. It's going to be very exciting and it's been the history of astronomy as larger and larger and more and more sophisticated and precise telescopes or have evolved over the last 10 or 15 years that every Advance leads to startling new discoveries. I suspect that Hubble will be no different back to Galileo just for half a second. Why did they have to put the nuclear-powered reactor in there? I don't they rely on solar energy. Like most of the others do the ones that rely on solar energy turn out to be just inner planet missions to Venus. For example Magellan we can still work very well with solar panels out as far as Mars the problem. Is that by the time you get out as far as Jupiter or Saturn and certainly Earnest and Neptune the son becomes increasingly just a dim twinkle of light in the sky are other overly large star, for example the light intensity from the Sun during the recent Voyager encounter. Neptune was an incredibly small fraction of the amount of light we got from the Sun on Earth something simply because it's 30 times farther away. And so the sun really does appear just just like a rather large star and not as a great big body dominating the sky the reason some what happens. Of course, is that the solar panels which are designed to convert sunlight into electricity are totally inefficient at that distance. They simply can't get enough sunlight to produce enough power to run the spacecraft the fuel cells which have been device essentially a long-lived battery can can impart compensate for this. But again, the lifetimes of these missions are so long Voyager went off in 1977 that was 12 years ago, and it's very difficult to draw power from from chemical or fuel cell types of sources over that long a time period and the only alter were left with two Alternatives either a very long extension cord, which is Impractical or nuclear power and and that's the option. That we seem to be forced to I should point out by the way that the radio thermal generators on these spacecraft are not are not nuclear reactors and no way are they nuclear reactors? They simply produce heat by the decay of the of the radioactive isotope. And then the process is very much akin to that that happens in a domestic power plant. The heat is in this case converted directly into electricity, but no no reactions that the characterize a nuclear reactor involved at all. Simply a source of heat. I see we got about five minutes left. We get a couple more of you on the air here as the hour winds down. Thanks for waiting. You're on the air now is dr. (00:52:01) Pepin. Yes, my question relates to what I've read about the space plane project, which currently a European Consortium is is embarking on and airfoil launched plane to go into orbit return from orbit. I wondered if what you thought of this technology and also why it seems the United States is not pursuing this technology at this time. Thank (00:52:22) you. I'm not aware of the extent to which Europe is actually advanced. And developing spaceplane technology. I agree with you that they are working on it, but I don't know precisely where they stand you're mistaken. However in assuming that NASA is not working on it the space plane, which I think Admiral truly did mention in his in his dead as I was going around an obstacle in downtown st. Paul. I seem to remember him saying something like that that's actually quite an active area of research within NASA and the plans to develop an aerospace plane, which will in fact be a both as an airplane but be capable of achieving low earth orbit is is a very active Pursuit within the agency and is developing quite rapidly. Alright next listener with a question. Go ahead. You're on the air. (00:53:07) I'm curious and I was very surprised and disgusted that we took out their pollution and left it on the moon. What's the chances of any of these space probes and so forth bringing all the rubbish back? (00:53:20) That's an interesting question know very few of them do come back. We launched several spacecraft, of course into low earth orbit. And there your your mention of pollution is much more serious than it was on the surface of the Moon. Yes. We left some debris behind on the surface of the Moon but for four missions launched into low earth orbit that stay there all the surveillance satellites and all the Earth observing systems satellites telescopes and such have a tendency to shed their various parts paint Flakes and possibly little nuts and bolts occasionally even blow up when their life is finished because there's little fuel fume left in the tanks and and and there are circumstances where that can ignite the consequence of this is that Our filling low earth orbit with various kinds of space turgor debris, which is beginning to pose a real Hazard to spacecraft operating in that environment. In fact, it's been predicted that within the next 30 years if we continue to add material to low earth orbit at the rate we're doing now then collisions among such objects will become common and we will create our own set of debris Rings just like Saturn only I think the Rings will be somewhat less impressive nevertheless. They'll be there for the for the deep space missions at least at the moment with the exception of the Apollo Crews. None of the Apollo missions. Nothing comes back. So we're essentially heaving are if you want to to look at it that way our pollutants are leftover spacecraft into the farthest reaches of interstellar space eventually and while in a sense we perhaps are polluting at the space is so vast that I think it is probably not a problem. Is there any way to get that stuff out of low earth orbit once it's up there everything from butterfly? That's the time has been suggested many of the other more dangerous objects will eventually go into Decay orbits and they will burn up in the upper atmosphere at the moment though. We're supplying material faster than this being removed that way and some of the material will not be subject to Decay at least not until a great deal of time has passed the question is how do you clean up material that's traveling with respect to the surface of the Earth at 17 or 18,000 miles an hour. It's a it's a tremendous problem a nose completely satisfactory way of cleaning it up except allowing nature to take its course and allowing their orbits to progress usually perturb until they burn up in the upper atmosphere has ever been suggested. Well, I think we have time for one more question here. Let's get you on with dr. Pepper and hello there. Hello. I just have one comment or question to dr. Pepper and I listened earlier to his comments from a caller who's question quite frankly. I did not understand but apparently, dr. Pepin did since he says he quickly agreed with him. I sometimes Was answered questions. I don't understand. Let's see what this one was though. Well you seem to quickly agree with a caller that Star Wars was merely a political aspect of the space program and I'm wondering if you couldn't Define for me so that I have time understanding what you're talking about what you mean by political aspects as opposed to any other aspects and certainly I would expect that you as a scientist would agree that technological developments in the defense industry have been obviously beneficial to our society since we've been kept out of a major war now for 45 years and certainly that for example, the ability of our government even have a NASA may be dependent upon our political Independence and our strength and I'm okay and you wouldn't clarify your position. I was a little confused by what you're all right, we have just one minute. So we'll be real brief about that. I was in my answering the earlier question. I essentially divided the human activity into spheres because that seemed to be the object of the earlier question. That is the scientific one, which was really the one under discussion and everything else having to do with the Tell Affairs within and among nations and I call that generally political I would certainly not argue with with the present collar that there have not been enormous technological benefits that have spun off many of the activities that I call political. So the sense of my earlier definition was simply to divide the world in human activity and two camps for purposes of illustration. If we wish to go very deeply into what I called political it would take much more time. I think than the few seconds we have left. We have just about a half a minute. I'm going to ask a blockbuster kind of question. But you know, that's what you're good at is summarizing quickly. Tell us just very briefly what you hope to get out of the small space program the the small launch program. There's been a tendency in the last decade and a half for NASA to put its energy into developing very large very complicated missions. And the reason for that is that scientists have all sorts of objectives in the space program and there is an instrument generally that that is needed to satisfy each objective. And so since the spacecraft missions were rather rare. It tended to hang a little Christmas tree lights all over these spacecraft and they got big we're now going to design smaller missions that have one or two dedicated instruments to do specific things in the inner solar system. And I think that will work in the sense of having more frequent but smaller launches and in the final analysis a cheaper and more profound science return. Thank you very much. Dr. Robert Pepin from the University of Minnesota. Twins are sport of the month award for coming in on a moment's notice to help us fill out this conversation on Space today. Let me remind you very briefly that Minnesota public radio's coverage of issues related to Human Services is made possible in part through a grant from 3M makers of posted brand notes many interesting things ahead on Minnesota Public Radio do stay tuned. This is Bob Potter speaking. Your turn to klow Minneapolis st. Paul 1330 AM in the Twin Cities (00:58:57) 63 degrees and mostly sunny high today upper 60s. Minnesota Public Radio is your source for comprehensive coverage of Minnesota issues? No matter where they develop with reporters at a dozen bureaus around the region and our Main Street radio team. Minnesota Public Radio is on the job on the beat and on the story. (00:59:19) And we'll have some news coming up in less than a minute from National Public Radio in Washington. And then Beth friend will be in with take out Beth. You're over in the big Studio there. What do you have planned a well? It's very special ticket today. We want our listeners your listeners to stay tuned to the radio and stay with their hands on the telephone Our Guest today is Father Charles Curran the controversial Catholic Theologian who has been censured by the Vatican and suspended from teaching at Catholic University. He will be in our studio along with clock more few the religion writer for the st. Paul paper and the phone lines will be open. So they'll be a lot to talk about a lot of very controversial things to talk about. Okay best sounds interesting will stay with you Beth round coming up with take out just after the news from national public radio in a moment (00:59:58) temperatures ranging from the mid 50's in the north west to near 70 in the (01:00:02) southwest today and then tomorrow there's just a slight chance of some showers in the afternoon now, it's a minute after one o'clock.