(00:00:06) Good morning. (00:00:08) I'm dr. Anita Pam push president of the College of Saint Catherine and a member of the Minnesota meeting board of directors. It's a pleasure to welcome all of you to Minnesota meeting today. We also extend a welcome to the radio audience throughout the Upper Midwest who are hearing this program on Minnesota Public Radio broadcasts of Minnesota meeting are made possible by the law firm of Oppenheimer wolf and Donnelly with offices in Minneapolis, St. Paul and major cities in the United States and Europe. Minnesota meeting is a public affairs Forum which brings National and international speakers to Minnesota members of Minnesota meeting represent this communities leaders from corporations government Academia and the professions Minnesota meeting is pleased to present today's speaker. Dr. Leonard Haynes assistant United States Secretary for post-secondary Education. Dr. Haynes will discuss the administration's view of college sports programs at a time when College athletes are generating tremendous revenue for University athletic programs while according to many critics receiving little education in return He will also discuss the responsibility universities undertake in order to put the education of college athletes before the development of a successful sports program what the Bush Administration can and should do to promote reform of college sports will be the focus of Haines address following his presentation questions will be addressed from the audience. Gary Gilson and Jamie Rasik will move among you to manage the question-and-answer session. It is now my pleasure to present to you. Dr. Leonard Haynes. (00:02:05) Thank you very much, like the pompous for that kind introduction (00:02:08) and let me say good afternoon (00:02:11) to all of you and see how the light I am (00:02:13) to be here with you today at the Minnesota meeting. (00:02:18) First of all, let me say on behalf of (00:02:19) President Bush and secretary Cavazos greetings to you and the command and congratulate all of you for what you're doing to (00:02:27) improve the educational system in this country. I got up this morning thinking that are planes would fly on time and indeed we did take off but maybe it's a Minnesota phenomenon, but some (00:02:43) 45 minutes before we were in the land the pilot announces. We've been cleared for landing and 45 minutes before we touch down. I've never had that (00:02:52) experience before. But I was wondering CGI we ever going to land but we landed 45 minutes later just as he said but indeed is a pleasure to be be here today and to share with you my thoughts on Collegiate Athletics and education. I know that our time is limited in the course your audience is not necessarily restricted this room. So let me get right (00:03:19) to the point of today's meeting (00:03:22) College athletics have in the opinion of many of our citizens (00:03:26) gotten out of control (00:03:28) and now threatening the image of what is otherwise the finest higher education system in the world. Too often now. We are experiencing this phenomenon. (00:03:41) When the American public turns on the television set or listens to the radio to a Collegiate Sports contest. If you're winning on the field or on the court the assumption is you must be winning in the classroom to if you're losing some how you're not doing well in the classroom either and God forbid if you (00:04:05) cannot manage your Athletic program (00:04:07) properly (00:04:08) how in the (00:04:09) world. Can you manage your Academic Program properly? These are our (00:04:13) images. Now, let me say up front that I don't Proclaim to be an expert on Collegiate Athletics, but I do have it in my background. I played on a state championship high school football team in Louisiana did one a Scholarship to Southern University where I played varsity football and earned two letters. I walked away from the experience happy (00:04:42) because my knees were still (00:04:43) intact my ankles, but I can't run down the hall too fast anymore. But when I was there, of course, I had graduate education on my mind because I was brought up to First respect the intellectual possibilities of education and not whether I would make the first or second string or whether I would become a professional football player somehow I was or I recall when I graduated I did receive a letter from the Dallas Cowboys inviting me to come to the camp and I had hoped to save all those mementos so I could brag to my kids one day but I think I threw all that stuff away when I got to graduate school but expert or not. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that America's perceptions of Collegiate Athletics are tarnished and that tarnish. (00:05:32) Those the very institutions (00:05:34) that we must rely on for this nation's future success in the world. According to u.s. News & World Report 80% of students on campuses thing student-athletes are treated with benefits. They should not have and that same public opinion poll indicates that nearly 75 percent of the public thinks that college sports are out of control a year ago educational record published Richard lap 6 survey of College athletics and which 86% of University presidents indicated that college sports get in the way of the educational mission of their (00:06:18) schools. (00:06:19) These data point to a completely unacceptable condition when Sports takes precedence over academics. The very institution of higher education is at grave risk when the idea that athletic prowess ranks with higher than academic achievement and when rewards for that promise over claim overwhelm academic goals are student athletes in our institutions will slide into a downward spiral towards mediocrity and eventual failure and that's just the tip of the iceberg. When we look at what Collegiate athletic programs are doing for our I should say to black students in particular. We are seeing no less than a system of broken (00:07:09) promises and failed dreams. (00:07:13) If we look again at lapchick study. We see a very disconcerting pattern among black athletes in high school. They express strong self confidence and self esteem. They have good grade point averages for the most part, they participate in extracurricular activities and they aspire to leadership roles yet when surveyed in a Collegiate environment, the picture is dramatically different like college athletes have low academic expectations. They have few Role Models. They are not involved in extracurricular activities and they hold unrealistically high expectations of the professional rewards for their athletic participation I was at my album model not long ago for a spring football game and watch them practice and ask the coach about the team. There was some 90 young men out there Dominic black college. So they were all black. I think they were to Hispanics in the group (00:08:19) and I asked him I said, what are (00:08:20) these kids expecting to do? He says (00:08:23) Leonard Every one of these players out here believe that they are going to professional football and I cannot tell them otherwise. (00:08:36) I will not go into the social and economic Dynamics. They may have strong effects on black athletes between high school and college suffice it to say that they are part of a bigger problem that is not going to go away unless we address it face on and force ourselves to make some changes. Let's look at a few factors that have skewed public opinion about College athletics. And they are (00:09:05) Collegiate recruitment professional recruitment (00:09:10) academic accountability personal expectations, institutional Effectiveness and institutional expectations. What do college recruiters say to promising (00:09:25) athletes. (00:09:27) What deals are held out and what deals are cut with parents. Yes with parents as I was saying at the table just a minute ago a coach in one of the major football powers in this country told me and Dallas not long ago that recruitment is very difficult. These days is not so much the student they have to recruit (00:09:51) is to parent. And the parents are asking one simple question. What's in it for me? (00:10:01) We must take a hard. Look at the students first contact with the world of post-secondary Education. Frankly. We must encourage parents of our very youngest students not to look at a child's physical abilities as the only hope for their future. I know that it is so hard to say to the families who are looking up from the bottom of society a road out of poverty on the strong shoulders and weld Hill feet of an athletically gifted son or daughter is a tempting Road indeed, but it is not the shoes that make the man. Get us the man that makes the shoes and Fancy Shoes on the feet mean nothing to an employer if there is no education in the head. I was running down the mall the other day I try to job to keep this weight down. And I looked at my feet and there were pair of (00:10:58) Nikes. I was running in and I was thinking about the commercial Bono's for Bono's basketball, but he never does say that he knows education. (00:11:12) And how impressionable these kids are so I thought of a new ad campaign in my own mind. (00:11:19) No, you know tight shot here. You see the shoes, you know and for pair of shoes two pair of shoes (00:11:28) you fade away and there I am Leonard Haynes sisters secretary and I save Department education and one of my teachers (00:11:39) with the same pair of shoes. (00:11:41) What would that image convey (00:11:43) to impressionable young minds who believe that if you put on those shoes, you'll be like the people who wear them. (00:11:52) I've been trying to reach Nike understand they have changed. So what is the rationale for approaching a young man or woman in the prime of their physical and intellectual life and encouraging them to attend a given institution if it is anything other than the opportunity to learn more to excel academically to lay the groundwork for a lifetime of satisfaction. Then it is the wrong message. If I had my way Collegiate athletic Scouts and recruiters would be banned from the family (00:12:32) living room. The same would hold true for professional recruiters. (00:12:38) We cannot have our young people compromised by sellers of (00:12:42) Dreams (00:12:44) at a time when decisions about real life and life in the long run must take precedence that is not to say there is not a religion limit role for recruiters, but discussions about as students athletic value to a school sports schedule needs to wait until the course schedule has been filled out and approved by the academic Dean. And just what does that course schedule presume, it should presume that the student athlete is attending the university to learn in a manner consistent with any other students experience at the same school favoritism dumbing-down diminished institutional expectations diluted academic standards have no place in any students Collegiate Experience. The personal expectations of the student athlete must be based on a realistic assessment of his or her abilities to move ahead in the world absent their athletic skills. They must have a reasonable expectation that should their muscles fail them their bones break under them as they did to me or their Vision betrayed them that they can pick up and move on without missing a beat a good education like nothing else provides that reasonable expectation. Institutional Effectiveness is critical here a school whose mission is to teach must subordinate all other goals to that end in this there can be no equivocation this nation cannot afford anything short of academic Excellence. Our International competitors could not care less about our football one lost records. They do not care about the technological one lost records either accept the fact that we do know they care because we are playing on a field that they control and we are now behind them, especially as we look at halftime. I'll International competitors could not care less about our most valuable players unless of course they mean in the marketplace which they do and they don't particularly care about who has the biggest stadium unless of course, they are supplying the steel to build it and the electronics to make the scoreboard light up. How ironic then that we alone among our Global competitors have Collegiate athletic programs of such glamorous reputation that we are willing to lose all just the win on the (00:15:44) Gridiron are on the basketball (00:15:46) court (00:15:48) here is where the cleats meet the turf. (00:15:54) A university By Any Other Name is still a place (00:15:58) of learning. It should be (00:16:02) if anyone in charge of a college and university. Thanks at the football stadium is the principal source of school Revenue that a winning team will be up enrollment are inspired the alumni to kick in a few million dollars for facilities he or she ought to get a professional sports (00:16:22) franchise and get out of Education. (00:16:27) We have too many national challenges facing us today to lose ourselves in the transient glories of the Arena. I am reminded of a story about one of the Great Caesar's who when driving his Chariot through the streets of Rome was accompanied by a servant who held a laurel wreath, just over Caesars Head (00:16:50) whispering to the emperor. All Fame is fleeting. It was a (00:16:56) reminder that we can never be certain that today's Glory will last more than a moment. We can only count on what we have within us to sustain (00:17:08) us through the uncertain times. (00:17:12) I'm a great fan of Collegiate Sports as many of you and don't get me wrong, but we must take a position that Sports programs was not interfere with academic programs. We must not encourage our student-athletes to think of sports as their tickets to The Good Life the ticket if it exists at all is the degree earned through self sacrifice and hard work. (00:17:41) That is the message. I want to leave you with (00:17:44) It is the message. We must leave without children. Anything less is a lie. Anything less is not good enough the great goal line for every student to cross. (00:18:00) My friends (00:18:01) is academic (00:18:03) Excellence. Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Haynes you're listening to dr. Leonard Haynes of the Bush Administration talking today. The Minnesota meeting is coming to you on the station's of Minnesota Public Radio from the Minnesota Club in downtown st. Paul. We open the floor for questions for dr. Haines. Yes, (00:18:33) sir. (00:18:34) Mike Fisher, (00:18:37) thank you. Dr. Haynes a couple times in your (00:18:41) speech one you said essentially if I had my way I'd change something about Recruitment. And another time that people believe that Sports Excellence is what the school is all about. And that's how to gain money. I laud your views but I wonder does the administration plan to take any action with respect to these views (00:19:03) in terms of our involvement in making the kind of changes. I've recommended we we have been watching (00:19:15) the legislation moving on Capitol Hill their couple of sports bills up. I think Senator Bradley and we've not taken a formal position, but we've (00:19:23) certainly been watching it because we know that if we're going to achieve academic excellence (00:19:28) in the country, we must do so across the board (00:19:30) as you know, right now we are at Trying to implement the (00:19:35) national goals that the president the governors met and agreed upon last late last year. We were talking about ninety percent graduation rate by the year 2000 first and Math and Science and the like was Six National goals. (00:19:51) And of course in all of this, we expect all (00:19:55) Americans to respond including minority communities and I think Sports unfortunately (00:20:02) has is out of proportion as it relates to expectation among many minorities, especially black Americans. So we've been speaking about this issue as you know, and I under our system education is a state responsibility and we can only try to encourage an influence the less where we are. We're not going to introduce any bill that I know of to that effect, but we are certainly calling on the nation's conscience to be more serious minded about this matter of success at all costs. (00:20:33) Thank you. Dr. Haynes a question from John Pillsbury and (00:20:37) my impression you didn't say anything about alumni, but my impression is that alumni who out of one side of their mouth (00:20:45) well want their college to be the greatest educational (00:20:47) institution in the world on the other side of the mouth will do almost anything to get a winning football basketball or whatever team. (00:20:57) Yes, sir. That that's that's one of our problems. As I said initially too many Americans equate winning on the field and court with more being more important than winning in the classroom. And part of that. I think is the media's fault because they bring us these contests and there are advertisements that are standing behind that and everyone's looking at Nielsen ratings and who's watching what and how many products are being purchased. I held a meeting in New York last month with the (00:21:30) American sport casters. Who are the principal announcers for the games (00:21:37) along with major advertising Executives? I was (00:21:40) pleading with them to change the nature of their advertisements to change the way they present the games to the public. For example, we (00:21:49) often see on the Intercollegiate of on the NCAA football contest at the halftime or near the end of the game. Someone will say well the (00:21:56) Chevrolet player of the game is X and then we'll find our little later. Well, mr. X hadn't gone to class and two years. And there he's being promoted to young people as the (00:22:10) best. We've got to change that then there is a problem at halftime (00:22:16) 15-second panoramic view of the campus. And that's all you see as opposed to living breathing people talking about the importance of education (00:22:26) and they admitted that they got to (00:22:28) change their way. So I'm hoping that through our encouragement and we all have to work together on this that we will see over the next year or so a different kind of presentation coming before us (00:22:43) and I think that will have a direct impact on (00:22:45) alumni because alumni like to be associated with (00:22:49) winning teams. I they hate to lose. I was at Ohio State University for a while (00:22:56) and I I remember distinctly what a thrill it is when the Buckeyes win, but when they lost and because what he was a (00:23:04) coach then they rarely lost at home. (00:23:06) But if they laws how the papers and the letters would come into the present office complaining fired this you know, but all we'd have to do would be to beat Michigan and I would be only game (00:23:18) Minnesota was always talked up as a win for some reason. They gave us a tough game. (00:23:26) Here's a question from Martin Adams. Dr. Haynes. I like to hear you address the issue of money as it relates somewhat to the previous question as well as to the schools in my (00:23:36) mind. I think the corrupting factor is the money that's brought in by the athletic teams that is what will make a poor kid jeopardizes future to go for the athletic teams. It's what will motivate a family to buy into this whole game as well as will motivate the schools to participate in this because money seems to be the thing that everybody has to gain from it. Absolutely. As I said to me I held in New York is no question that we're talking about (00:24:02) millions and millions of dollars if you look at the contracts of the sign. Between the NCAA and the the institutions and the advertisers who bring you the games as a lot of money (00:24:13) involved the shoe manufacturers, for example, subsidizing coaches salaries to the hundreds (00:24:18) and thousands of dollars in his and the kids never see that but yet they are required to wear these shoes on it's out (00:24:25) of whack and the idea of paying (00:24:27) a coach as I said at the table six hundred thousand dollars a year and you got a faculty member earning 45,000. He's teaching five classes or some something about that doesn't make any sense that an institution we've got to (00:24:40) address that and it's got to take people who don't suffer from nerve failures. He that's one of my problems. We've got leadership who know better, but they got nerve Faith they (00:24:49) afraid afraid of (00:24:51) what the shadow (00:24:53) I think one of the things that that (00:24:55) attracted me into the administration and I would be allowed to take a job where I could exercise leadership, (00:25:01) which I have done and I think when you're exercising leadership, Whether your College president or football coach of the light you do what's right and what's fair and you're not afraid to do it because if you're an adult and this country, you know, right from wrong America was built on personal sacrifice and hard work. That's how this country was built and what has happened with the infusion of money. I believe is that people tried to avoid dealing with those two things and people who impressed more like minority kids who are have great ability, athletically and are promoted and promoted but they do well in high school, but when they get to the Collegiate (00:25:42) environment somehow this it don't worry about going to class (00:25:45) on you just go out and run the ball and score 30 points a night and we'll take care of you will take her class, but we've got to change (00:25:54) that. I'm encouraged by what's happening now at the University of Miami, by the way (00:25:59) in Florida, we support as you know (00:26:01) student access. By providing them (00:26:06) loans grants and the like and also College work study. Well, the University of Miami football coach has using the work study program very interesting. He's he's got students who are on work-study who watch the athletes. Be sure to go to class and then not there you come back and report on them. (00:26:22) Well, you know us you you take whatever measures but somebody that shouldn't have to happen but some things need to happen and I think it needs to happen from perspective. You cannot have (00:26:35) people who have nerve failure, you know, there have been many conferences on this subject many newspaper articles. (00:26:46) And when you look at it, you ask yourself. When are they going to make the decision? I played at a time was (00:26:52) different environment. No question about that, but my football coach taught a class. And he required us to go to class as a matter of fact, we had to wear a tie three times a week and we had Saturday classes when I was in college. And of course you were not giving excuses on game day. You could make up the class. But if you miss that one on your record, so I never really made an a in a class. I took on Saturday and I was a history major so they I mean but I'm trying to say to myself what's so different from that environment at this. I think there were more people who cared that you learned something and today I think (00:27:32) we don't have that caring (00:27:34) attitude across the board. The coaches wanted us to learn something. I know that every Monday night. We didn't look at them. We just talked about life and how important was a graduate of The Twelve seniors on my team that I did I play the southern we all graduated on time and I look at him now today a couple of have passed on but they all doing very well and we (00:27:57) think about that all the time how we (00:27:59) From from these other guys, you know (00:28:02) because they pushed us hard (00:28:04) question over here from John Kiran as a follow-up on that comment doctor I'd be interested in your response or commenting on number of writings recently on the suggestion to pay College athletes as they participate in the big money Sports and second area that I'd be interested in your comments on would be the NCAA debate over raising academic standards and how that affects your analysis in particular what happens to the student athlete that it can't qualify. What where do we go with that person? (00:28:35) I think we got (00:28:37) an academic institution cannot (00:28:39) compromise is commitment to academic Excellence. I'll start off with their principal. You know, (00:28:46) I think I said in my remarks that you want a student who (00:28:49) comes into an institution to be able to perform at a level the institution expect you to perform at anything less than that is substandard, you know, we have done too much of that in this country accepting less than the best in order to achieve yet another Aim. So I think that you know, it's nothing wrong with standards maybe freshman all not be playing a big-time football or basketball either we can go back to it, you know kids have to adjust to life (00:29:16) and if our school system has not done its (00:29:18) job and you know, that's why we are restructuring reformer right now because the 17 year olds in this country don't know enough we've proven that have we not they know very little math and know very little about how to write and know very little about the English language all of our national test scores and then the geography they know very little about the United States of America. So why would you put a kid on the field who doesn't know the 50 States United States of America? (00:29:43) I mean, there's some fundamental things but just as you've got 50,000 dads out there trying to train the next Michael Jordan right (00:29:51) now as we sit here you can do the same thing with minority youngsters and he said listen you can you can play these sports but you will learn to (00:30:02) I mean, it takes (00:30:03) leadership and that's what I'm saying the kind of leadership. That won't (00:30:06) try to get something for nothing. (00:30:08) There's no free lunch and United States of America. Nothing is free. Yes. There's a question from Matthew little Dr. Haynes is my understanding that scholarships are normally for our student-athletes are for four years and with the present with the pressure and the time that's required by the average student athlete athlete's of a big-time college today. It seems to me a little bit unrealistic to expect them to do that in a matter of four years has there ever been in the consideration at all of giving (00:30:48) unlimited (00:30:50) scholarships for athletes, even if he does not (00:30:54) make it in Perl perhaps you could come back and finish or as long as (00:30:58) he pursued an education that he would get subsidized education opportunities. Has that ever been tried as far as (00:31:07) well die. I think the Knight commission is talking about extending (00:31:13) the number of years of scholarship could run until the student finishes, (00:31:17) but Here again, you go back to the advertisement and the kind (00:31:20) of money that's being put into big-time Athletics. (00:31:24) It does not cause the advertised. I told them this in New York. They need to put more money back into the (00:31:29) institution for the remedial work and the like they've not done their part. I mean $1000 for the player of the game is so insignificant. It's so insignificant (00:31:42) it but it adds up that's what they told me. But it's insignificant compared to what (00:31:46) is really being made off of these contests. (00:31:49) So, you know, it is a question of money (00:31:51) as a question of resources, (00:31:53) but I think it's a question of commitment and that gets back to one of the problems that many minority (00:31:59) students are having in America today as you notice. There have been more reports on racism on campus across the board every week. It looks like yet another report from some part of America. (00:32:14) And that's (00:32:15) not unrelated to the problems. I believe they're happening in a Collegiate Athletics. (00:32:20) But as I said at Harvard three weeks ago. all institution can (00:32:26) do and should do for any student that comes and enrolls for whatever purpose is to say the student. You are welcome to be here. And meaning and that's a universal word around the world. You see it on on the airplane all the time. Welcome and said in friendship saying in Polish and mean the word and out of that. I thank you get the respect that you need right now. I think many of the athletes who come to the institution don't even feel part of the academic Enterprise because they brought under false pretense. So they are not welcome when they are not playing. And they stayed to themselves and and you don't want that for young people. So I think you know that goes back to the academic (00:33:20) that I had problems with athletic (00:33:22) dormitories. I never lived in one and he live with the students. You know, that's what you are. I mean, we've got pampering and posturing has been going on that we've been encouraged by I think a society of which we have said win at all costs on the (00:33:38) field, but we're not winning in the (00:33:40) plants of the world. We're not women winning globally (00:33:45) with our Competitive Edge. That's why we've changed the nature of our dialogue. We have to be first that we (00:33:50) say this it's not rhetoric First in Math and Science by the year 2000. Well, we put a man on the moon in 10 years until we said we said a decade but we did a nine years. Said we couldn't do it so we can do (00:34:04) anything in this country. We put our mind to it. That's why we've been pushing National goals. People say well as rhetoric rhetoric. No, it's not we have no (00:34:11) choice or we will fall further behind. There's an article is reading on the plane about (00:34:17) Central Europe's production of automobiles how they will be (00:34:20) introducing to America as yet another competition for Detroit. We've got to get with it. We've got to start somewhere and sports could be a vehicle to which we encourage not only athletic prowess but academic but (00:34:36) we have some certainly the people who are out there. We know they are in fact (00:34:40) students and we can do that and it did not students. Don't play (00:34:44) my coach is very simple. He told us if you don't go to class. I'll never forget his lectures. If you don't go to class if you make less than a two point You will (00:34:56) not play. Whether you started or not and then he went further if you made one point, you will not travel me. No out-of-town trips. Now that motivates you because your mother wants to see your play your girlfriend will see you play. I mean, you know, so we were (00:35:16) shame. Yeah, but it takes that type of atmosphere. (00:35:22) I have a question here from David Larry. (00:35:25) Dr. Haynes, I applaud your personal leadership. I have a question about the administration's commitment particularly in the area of meeting. The real needs of students in the financial area. True in the last decade the real and constant dollar contribution of the federal government to gift aid to students has declined. Do you expect that? The Bush Administration will change that pattern next year or two. (00:35:51) I am the chairman of the (00:35:53) Department's (00:35:54) reauthorization of The Higher Education Act of (00:35:56) 1965. It is through this act that. We fund student aid and we augment and supplement certain programmatic thrust the budget of my office is ten point eight billion dollars thereabouts, (00:36:10) but I'm coming at it this way, but as I said at the table, I have (00:36:13) a cumulative default problem of over 8 billion dollars in default. That's unacceptable by anybody's measuring stick. Now, how do we get into this mess? Loans are available to students. But increasingly we've got a population that we're trying to serve whose rights and responsibilities have not been addressed as their participation in student aid that's on the one hand the cost of higher education of not maintain have not been constant more institutions, especially private institutions putting more the institutional resources in the scholarships. So they can keep the buildings on we were academic facilities that are falling apart. Our environment is such the demographics are changing rapidly that we are we've said That we are going to do bold new initiatives in higher education. We are working on them right now the system that we have in place now at that you pointed out is not serving this country well and post-secondary education and I say post secondary causes anything above 12th grade is proprietary schools is community colleges four-year private is for your public and what we have in America today is basically a public that is ignorant about post-secondary education. Even the ones who are college trained. They view post-secondary in terms of our own personal experience as a consequence. They don't know the difference between a proprietary school and a community college. They don't know the difference between a four-year private at a 4-year public what they know is (00:37:54) price how much they pay. And somehow they equate price with quality the more you pay (00:38:02) the more likely you are to be exposed to Quality, but that's not (00:38:05) true. So within this (00:38:08) environment I can assure you that the proposal that we will come up that we have submitted to the Congress and we will argue (00:38:15) and debate but they are prepared for (00:38:17) something new to because our system when you start talking about cumulative defaults of 8 billion, I spend a lot of time meeting with bankers and lending institutions (00:38:31) I didn't (00:38:32) expect that when I came into this job. This is an education job, but you know why I'm meeting with bankers and lenders because we have all of a sudden become major Financial players in their daily affairs. Indeed some of the smaller Banks and lending institutions depend. On the student loan portfolio to open their doors everyday. So we've got this we know that wasn't the intent of our actions the act that we are under was conceptualized 4. It no longer exists. And indeed we will be making bold changes on that one argument is that we provide more grants as opposed to loans. Well, you know think about that perhaps we need a major national Savings Program in which for every American child born in this country that persist through high school. We put aside X and they go on to post-secondary we get y available in other words access without achievement and accountability is meaningless (00:39:40) right now. We provide the (00:39:41) access but we don't have any notion of how well are the students doing when they get there and all we accountable for our actions (00:39:50) and that relates to (00:39:51) institutional Effectiveness in terms of measurable outcomes on the station's of Minnesota Public Radio, you're listening to the Minnesota meeting coming to you from the Minnesota Club in downtown st. Paul our speakers. Dr. Leonard Haynes a specialist in post-secondary education a member of the Bush Administration as assistant US Secretary of Education. Our next question is from dr. Margaret (00:40:12) Prescott. Good afternoon. Dr. Haynes. I want to thank you very much for your support of the aims of the NCAA president's commission and wondered if you could please give us your views on the roles of three of the significant players in the reform of Collegiate Athletics the national football. Association the NBA and the NCAA how might they further reform Collegiate Athletics. Thank you. (00:40:45) Well, you know by my personal view is the owners of the major professional sports franchises (00:40:53) should provide more resources to traditional higher education institutions. They should put money into these institutions to augment and supplement remedial programs that are needed for the athletes that have to have it that kind of they don't do very very little (00:41:11) that. They profit on the back end. I mean (00:41:14) most institutions are their Farm their unofficial Farm clubs and the institution receives almost nothing for it (00:41:21) except that I think there is some influence their as (00:41:23) who shows up on television who doesn't but I think the NBA and NFL and have just not put the kind of resources into Intercollegiate Athletics that they should that would benefit. It's student-athletes academically. That's one thing they've not done and I'm not seeing enough of that come out of the ncaa's commission. All you can the Knight commission. I think you need to press that point. I really do because the money the resources there any time our Davis can play around with two cities. And then the city of Oakland finally had the nerve to tell them no because they were more important priorities in that Community than just having a team so everybody gets to wear a (00:42:05) t-shirt. (00:42:08) Tell me that was encouraging (00:42:11) Doug Schuler. (00:42:12) Yeah, dr. Haynes. I'd like to get back to the money to the money issue here have any have any more radical Solutions been suggested such as eliminating big-time Intercollegiate Athletics from television because if money is the root of the evil, it seems that the advertisers and the networks are the source of many of the incentives that are leading to these abuses by recruiters coaches. And if I can elaborate, I think that possibly that is why your experience when you were an athlete is fundamentally different than these athletes today because television was not as big After that, let me ask you another question in at even more fundamental why should universities even have athletic programs? (00:43:09) Well, those are those are both two very weighty questions throughout the well, I'm trying to deal with the one that you asked the latter question first. I think throughout the human existence has been some sort of competition. (00:43:30) Maybe this is unique to the human species but indeed to to mammals themselves the sense of competition for something if it's form a tour of his at play or the like Orvis over war that seems to be a part of the human existence and Athletics. Of course, I believe it teaches you good lessons winning and losing you win as a team. You losing the team I learn the right lessons, you know, and even when you were behind with we were getting beat one day, I think I lost 18 pounds if you can believe that In a Texas Sun it was about a hundred and five degrees were behind 320 and in like five seconds left to go in the game the coach they go out there. Let's try to win it. No way. We on the 5-yard line. He had to go a long way. Well, we lost the game. But I mean you learn I think values that's an important competition I think so it's and it helps mold and shapes character and the like and all of all the good virtues in competition and Athletics, but the money of course is the problem Sports in our society is brought to you as entertainment. It's basically become an entertainment device. It's a part of the annual menu of the network Seasons as they opened up situation comedies Entertainment Sports. It's expected has become a part of the American lifestyle and can we change that? I'll put it back into perspective and I think we can I think one thing that's helping at least I've noticed this my own experience the Advent of so many channels on television where you can't focus for any length of time on anything and I sit there with this button, you know like anything and I'm just going all the way and then you turn to a program that shows you at all. You know, what less than an hour, you know, I think that, you know, the different mediums that are coming back people are returning more outside of doing things. I think it is changing some point. I think Americans are tired of the scandals and sports. They really tired of scandals. They raising some questions as I did (00:45:47) this summer watching the Major League (00:45:49) Baseball contracts negotiated guy who bad at 220 last year's getting 15 million this something about that that make any sense to me. I mean what happened what happened? Of course, I'm told that everybody makes this kind of money. It has gotten out of perspective and I think we have to put it back into perspective, especially for the young people who look at people in sports as their Heroes, especially minority young people. I had to speak shortly after Dexter Manley confessed to being having problems with cocaine to a group of young people in Washington DC one of the saddest points in my life because here I am You know minority person appointed by the president and states to serve the country and I don't think I'm necessarily brilliant. I work hard and sacrifice in the light. But what was I to say those kids medals kids Dexter man that was their hero and I was just another person it seems to me they would might want to Aspire to become like me as opposed to like him. So we've got a lot of things we've got to change and the question is do we have the nerve to do it? I think we do have the nerve because we've made remarkable changes in this country and I'll short existence over 200 years and we can't afford not to make the changes. It just takes the American resolve. I think when we are faced with a problem and this is a problem. No question about it. We'll have to make the changes. I was encouraging to hear the basketball coaches talk about giving up their shoe contracts. Well, they should done a long time ago people know that this is wrong. You know, you can't hide lives forever. They always come out in the wash. Thank you. Dr. Haines. Here's a question from Dave Tesla. Thank you very much for your comments. By the way. I certainly endorse everything you said but I can only help but believe that a vast majority of college administrators and faculty are in a hundred percent agreement with what you said, but how do you solve a problem? That is unsolvable. The last question related to The High TV contracts Notre Dame is an example last year backed out of the consortia of colleges because they wanted more money. I mean it's greed greed greed, but how our College administrators going to address this question and change it. You know, when you look at these these three million dollar contracts for for a player per year. I mean, it's well you (00:48:19) have an in traditional higher education that has the big-time Athletics you've got Institutions who have Boards of (00:48:26) trustees and policy making (00:48:28) bottles. I think that's one place to start. You know boards have to hire (00:48:33) people who will make decisions that are right and recognize the consequences of their actions, but unfortunately many boards people with individuals who love to win at all costs and who endorse certain things that happened underneath the table as opposed on top of the table, but if they're public authorities where they are accountable to the public, I think that their financial balance sheets and everything should be made public I once worked at an institution where we raise questions as to how much did the football coach make we knew how much the state paid him, but we didn't know I mean much he made we ought to make these things public at the public says, well, this is what we want (00:49:16) then fine, but I don't think the public would want that. I I think we've just got (00:49:21) to show show. (00:49:23) Everyone we ought to publish the schedules of the athletes who show up at the sports (00:49:27) put them in the student newspaper and say this is what they're taking this fall while they're playing. Are we all to do things like that? Alright, we could stand up. My mother tells me all the time Sunshine hurts. Nobody. Like their hands, I don't know how many people realize that big-time college football players spent 60 to 70 hours a week in football. And those are hard hours. Yeah, here's a proposal. I wonder if you could assess it. Let television keep playing a paying a lot of money. Let them recruit players. Let them try to ensure their education but cut the 70 hours a week down to 20 allow them to be college students to have a college experience and make sure they go to class. What do you think? (00:50:10) Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. I don't see how they do it. I'm going my own college experience. I my God, I mean, you know, 60 70 hours and practice. We never practiced on Sunday, (00:50:20) but I know there's some things to practice twice on Sunday. They also practice on whenever practice on Monday. We just walk through drills it (00:50:26) but it has gotten out of perspective. But the thing of it is is someone feels that they'll get an edge. They have to have an edge and that's that Gwen at all costs. But I think you get at that by hiring (00:50:39) people who (00:50:41) are fair-minded and me that that becomes (00:50:44) representation of your institution (00:50:47) in my judgment. It shouldn't be any reason (00:50:50) for an institution to have an athletic operation to this not run above the table. When it's not run above the table is more than the coach's fault is also the fall of the people who hired everybody because they knew at the beginning what it was going to be like we need to have people associated with education that have integrity and good moral character. We really do that's the thing that minorities are shortchanged on is no question. They view the society from the bottom up and it's a tough struggle. I've been there, but what helps you to succeed as being around people who are good, the more good people you're around the more likely you are to be good, too. But if you run across bad people I can tell you you're going to become bad yourself because it's tough not to be impressed by what you see. Thank you, sir. Here's a question from Maryland (00:51:47) Bryant. Thank you. Dr. Haynes you have mostly. In fact all the time in your remarks been addressing men's Athletics in the Collegiate environment and I am concerned and interested in women's Athletics. We have a separate Department of women's Athletics at the University of Minnesota, which I have been a supportive of and have been because last year over half of our young women graduating in that program had three point or a butter above averages and we also have been graduating 86 to 90 percent of the people in that program. And I think that's an excellent. Right? Absolutely. What I would like to have you comment on please is the fact that women at least at this stage do not raise sufficient revenues from their athletic programs to support them and at the University of Minnesota, the program is supported by what we call a governor special in addition some of the monies from the men's athletic department revenues have gone to women's Athletics to Turns out the Title Nine requirements. Now the young women we say will learn competition. They'll learn balance. They'll learn leadership all the young people the things that we say the young men earn on the playing field and yet it's highly sensitive and we find resentment of the fact that the women's program has to be supportive to get these values and yet we want the money from the men's program to support there's so as I say, it's a very sensitive issue in how women can have an equal program when they don't have resident revenue-raising Sports sufficient to support them. Would you comment on this please? (00:53:24) Yes. Well I've is no question of women have a need to have access (00:53:29) to sports programs and they've been quite successful. I think the danger is that I certainly women are not want to mirror what has happened in the men's Arena deed. There are lessons to be learned there and the men certainly need to learn lessons from the women, but what's happening I think is that we're not careful the money that comes into (00:53:48) Once that identifies (00:53:50) quote a woman's board as being the thing they want to entertain the public with you will have the same problem (00:53:56) unless you put in the safeguards that I've been trying (00:53:59) to encourage that you've got to have people who operate above the (00:54:03) board and they have been some abuses. I might add and some of the quote (00:54:07) major women Collegiate athlete institutions where they play big-time Sports is manufacture Sports a bigger than the men's sports. We don't hear about that. But in certain regions of the country, I have received reports about that. It's one of keeping it in perspective. You know, are we about the business of winning at all costs, you know, that's the fundamental question that we have to ask ourselves. If so, why aren't we doing it in other arenas? Why aren't we first in math and science you have to 50,000 fathers are training them the next Michael Jordan. Why can't we give 50,000 people to train the next Einstein? It's the same principles. Basically it's repetition, you know over and over again is coach says you you perfect practice you get to play don't practice. Well you will sit today. And that's what they do to most of them. I don't care how great you are. Don't do it my way. You won't be out there. We can do the same thing with kids in the classroom. The seventeen-year-old I said a minute ago in this country know very little (00:55:17) that's our future. (00:55:20) These are minorities (00:55:21) and all (00:55:23) Americans kids. (00:55:25) That's why we have National goals. Now we have to change. And I think Athletics is the key to it (00:55:31) both men and women's sports. (00:55:35) One more question is very mcclenahan. Dr. Haynes you referred to a study by Rich lapchick. Another thing he pointed out is that a minority (00:55:43) youngster has a far greater (00:55:45) chance statistically of becoming a doctor a lawyer than a professional athlete why couldn't the federal (00:55:50) government use some of its regulatory power in terms of the mass (00:55:54) media to use some of those Revenue to have meaningful Public Service kinds of things to get that message through. (00:56:00) Well, I'm glad you mentioned that that was one of the the issues are (00:56:03) raised with the Americans warcasters Association about helping us help the country, you know is too often that we allow multinational corporations to expand most of the energies for example outside of America as opposed to in it, but we need to help everybody and if we're going to (00:56:23) make changes on the one end, we can't run (00:56:25) up against the same system. That won't make any changes at all simple things like having the academic all-americans. Whatever the sport men or women broadcast more show. It show the young people are more people like that. Then they are the greats, you know, who are just one in a million. We've got to change images and I think we can all do this together. It's not going to be easy because old habits are hard to die, but new habits can be formed because just as you get up in the morning and I tell everyone (00:57:00) the answers to this nation (00:57:03) these problems here that we Face are in the mirrors. We look at every (00:57:08) morning. Well, (00:57:11) dr. Haines thank you very much. We've been listening to dr. Leonard Haynes who was assistant US Secretary of Education and the Bush Administration on the station's of Minnesota Public Radio from the Minnesota Club in downtown st. Paul on the Minnesota meeting. Dr. Haynes many of the speakers who come here have left Their audience as well informed sometimes entertained occasionally and very happily sometimes touched and I was watching as well as listening as you major initial remarks and when you talked about your idea for a new Nike advertising campaign, I saw many of the people in this room genuinely touched. Thank you very much for being here. (00:58:06) Thank you. Dr. Haynes for a most informative. Look at issues involving college sports and academics.