It's Monday November 10th 1975. The steamship Edmund Fitzgerald is 36 hours out of its last port Superior, Wisconsin. The Fitzgerald owned by Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance company. And the weather Sunday morning in Superior. Wisconsin was ideal but by late Sunday evening with Fitzgerald now well underway a storm from the Northwest blue across Lake Superior at first Gale warnings were posted and the warning to revise to Hurricane status.At 7:10 p.m. The captain of the Fitzgerald Ernest McSorley radio JB Cooper Skipper of the Arthur M Anderson, which was following several miles behind that the Fitzgerald was beginning to take on water but wasn't really a couple both captains briefly discuss the weather conditions and the fact that the next day Tuesday, November 11th was the 62nd anniversary of the great storm of 1913 the storm that killed 254 Sailors on the great lakes and sank or damaged more than a hundred ships the captain's finish their conversation then and apparently an instant something happened Captain Cooper. Only remember is that he lost sight of the Fitzgerald running lights. The next thing he knew the Fitzgerald was gone from his radar screen.We found so far is that.26000 * 1 that's good. Based on previous information. We still hope to find survivors on so we can make sure at this time. She was carrying a bunker C oil. We had a power outage here in the soo I had. gone home after working all day in the the power went out in my wife and I were sitting around a fireplace just sort of enjoying the evening and listening to the the trees whip around and we were listening to her horrible radio that the water was coming over the locked gate and get that much of a c running in the river. You can tell what is pretty bad out in the the lake area operations officer at the Guard base Sioux Saint Marie, Michigan Lieutenant operation mounted to find the Fitzgerald at the Opera in probably about four or five feet. So it was pounding pretty hard even in the river and we were getting assessments from some Red Line station said that the Seas were running anywhere between 20 and 25 ft. Companies with the with the tremendous wave motion in the lake for high winds. What were the winds been clocked at 9 that was backed up by a reading at the National Weather Service. So 65 miles an hour with Gus higher than that. We're not really so actually though the winds were in the hurricane bowlocity how to make sure once a ship like the Fitzgerald leaves port in Wisconsin to to head south do they ever go back in in case of a storm? It's totally a masters decision whether he's going to turn around and go back or if he's aware of Aleve or have somewhere further on in the lake that he can reach. He might try and go for that. Do you think that they were trying to head for cover in the Eastern end of superior? I think that he was probably counting on being able to stay in the Lee of the shore. So he was staying a little closer to the Canadian Shore than he normally would have and hoping it by staying in close to shore then the water would be a little bit, and he'd have a little better ride. How long after the time the Fitzgerald was reported missing. How long was it before you actually had a fix on where the ship went down and had a rough idea of what it happened? Almost immediately. The first time that we were notified that it possibly sunk was about eight-thirty on that evening. The Anderson called up the Mastery Anderson was greatly distressed since he had been keeping the Fitzgerald on his radar and then when the storm cleared the weather cleared a little bit and he could see about 20 miles in front of me could not see the picture out so he called us and he was greatly distressed over the possibility that the Fitzgerald had some and based on his position the distance he had been behind the Fitzgerald we felt that we had a fairly accurate fix on where he was. Did you respond immediately to the call because of the storm conditions you were able to get out there right away in the rescue coordination Center Cleveland, since there was a realization on everyone's part that this would be much bigger than our capabilities here. We would have to call on units from online station. We contacted the rescue coordination Center in Cleveland who immediately requested an aircraft from Air Station Traverse City with the sea conditions being what they were and the operating constraints on our own vessels here. We felt that that was probably the the best chance we have of locating and recovering any survivors after the winter conditions broke up on the lights to a search operation the Coast Guard undertook to try and find out what happened to the Edmund Fitzgerald and involve underwater video taping and in still photography. Well here at Bay. So we provided support for the units who were actually on scene doing the the actual underwater searching what they find out in the search operation. The results as far as I know we're still inconclusive. The information was immediately turned over to the Rain Board of investigation that report hasn't been released yet. But basically they found that the developer was lying in the mud in approximately three separate pieces. And I'm not sure what conclusions they were able to draw from any other information. I got were they able to ascertain exactly what happened to the ship whether it hit some shows that took on water it exploded. Were they able to figure anything out? I have to look into their years of experience and sailing coupled with the pictures that they were able to get of the Fitzgerald on the bottom and try and come up with a hypothetical situation as to how it could have gone down. So rapidly do you think I'll ever find out exactly what happened to the Fitzgerald? I doubt it sincerely. I think that they will have a best estimate as to what could have happened, but I don't think there's any way of actually telling me what really did occur there so many possibilities that could have happened. There's a chain of events leading up to an ultimate sinking such as this and any number of things could have ham Dream that chain of events to affect the central. What makes a great lakes in a particular Lake Superior? So treacherous this isn't the first time a ship is going down. We can go all the way back to the 1601 LaSalle Griffin disappear. Never made Port of course in the 1600s. The Coast Guard was not around and there wasn't search-and-rescue operations at all. So it was very possible for no one to hear at the Griffin again, but in a case like this the Edmund Fitzgerald steaming from Wisconsin very very close to a land mass just disappears from sight and there has to be something with the lake there has to be something possibly with the communication systems that is just an incredible situation and hope what makes the lake turn up like that is very difficult to say. How do you say with a Communications with the the great number of of iron ore deposits in the lake magnetic anomalies Are Not Unusual in particular portions of the lake which might effective communication the death of the lake in relation to its its area contributed to the the high seas that can build up in a very short time and you number of things could contribute to it. It's interesting that she knows that the Fitzgerald went down in the month of November. And in in many reports official Coast Guard reports stated that November is probably the worst month of the year or shipping is concerned Why is November so bad to come up rapidly not being associated with the National Weather Service time. I'm not exactly certain why that is but historically speaking that that is Is there any other month that prevents I hazards to shipping on the Lakes storms? But again, they come up very rapidly the weather is very unstable. What possibly can be done to help better a situation. Like what happened to the Fitzgerald. It just dropping from sight. Is there a way communication system can be battered the rescue operation now, there were no survivors from the Fitzgerald and so far. Nobody has washed up at fossil basic characteristic of like but it is it possible to upgrade the rescue operation 2 Ensure that a search operation can be can be on the way sooner. There's no question that the the search-and-rescue forces could be upgraded. However, we operate within budgetary constraints. It would be ideal to have unlimited funds to be able to spend to get everything that we would like to have to prevent another occurrence like the Fitzgerald but we do operate within budgetary constraints and we tried to get the best equipment that we can within our operating budget if we could have more money I am convinced that we probably could get a lot more forces. We have a problem with the fitzgerald-sommer to the Fitzgerald and that our budgetary requests are based primarily on statistical data and the number of occurrences similar to a Fitzgerald are very small consequently. We can't really gear up to 100% response to a situation like the Fitzgerald. We have to look at the more commonplace incidents again. We are unlimited funds. There's no question that we could have enough forces and the best equipment available to respond to an incident like the Fitzgerald. I was kind of thinking to you know of something should happen and I got a telephone call. Oh, maybe about 11 and Maxi-Cosi, Mico Scotty camper call right now, but I have people if they have these little scanner radio with me as well as past storms on the Lakes songs from discover the Great Lakes for more than 40 years as a reporter and Marine out of there before they Sue Saint Marie news. He feels the storm that sank. The Fitzgerald was a bad one, but not the worst he's seen was it the worst storm that you've ever say nothing at all. It was bad in this respect. that the windows from the north and west I believe not mistaken and What is the first time that a number of years I'd that I'd observed water going the next day. They're still still going on this morning. I want to take a look around daylight after all it was November 10th and the next morning. Waves are still slicing over the West Gates of the soo locks, which is unusual is it's a long Channel down there and they call Lee Southwest Pier. Let's see Western approach to the locks are the wind gusts that night were clocked at approximately 90 miles an hour. Is that unusual for a lake like? When I went out to cover a shipwreck of a barge on Lake Superior at the place called Little Lake Northern Newberry. I saw this bargain was the first time I'd ever observed operation, whereby they take them in from the Shore by And I was standing on top of the bank overlooking Lake Superior and the wind is blowing so hard I had to virtually Lean Into The Wind to take a picture. I mean, I would have cleaned it all 45 degree angle, November 10th storm. What makes a lake like Superior so so Ruff so dangerous? And I'm just one heck of a long cold Suite 400 Mile right across from their inspections a can of that works its way into the great Slave Lake area. And then you coming down boiling down that way the wind has a 400 mile race course that I imagine. It's something like Well when I want to know when from the northwest. I know the way you can start working back again. Lake Superior is especially in the area where the Fitzgerald went down. That's supposed to be one of the worst shipwreck areas the whole right leg system probably in the world. As a matter of fact some author has referred to this particular area where the Edmund Fitzgerald went down in comparison to Caribou Island then East to coppermine point in Lake Superior diagram. And I in this particular area. They have discovered. There are 12. Unexplained shipwreck since 1851 in the same general area and Whitefish Point at self Waters have been commonly known by Sailors for a living you get to know the ships and you get to know some of the people aboard the ships. The Fitzgerald was a ship that was through the soo area frequently approximately twice a week. Now, you have to pick up sort of an attachment to something like that. But what were your feelings like when you first heard it was the Fitzgerald at the Fitzgerald is a matter of fact was among the first of the so-called 730 Get the what's 729 ft long. And people might wonder what this class is. Well after World War II could accommodate them. Is 800 feet long and 18 feet wide and theoretically? Recording engineer another shipping experts can up the maximum size. And it was the maximum size to MacArthur lock the door handle would be 730 ft overall length, + 7575 ft wide and in an 80-foot wide lock that allowed only two and a half. They ship building companies very gingerly approach to 730 ft Mark and Fitzgerald was built. I believe in 1956 on a mistaken. And it would have built the Great Lakes engineering company in Ecorse, Michigan and my understanding is that it was the last Steamboat built. and the Fitzgerald itself, although was operated by Ogilvie. Norton's of Columbia steamship division self was owned by Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance. and it was chartered by inviting a Oglebay Norton or Colombia and At the time was was one of the very finest so old. I forgot going to continue to break what they call a single cargo records for the soo locks. It was the first vessel to carry an excessive 30000 short tons. end The captain at the time I knew him quite well as you still alive living in Florida Captain Peter pulsar, and he was quite a watch from the next trip coming down email it to Two Harbors, Minnesota Silver Bay one of the ports up there. Before Captain Pulsar retired. Why am I bleeding but carrying. Brown 35 and the Fitzgerald was the first ship to exceeding the Thousand ton cargo. I don't believe that. Head to head to punish herself the carrying these big cargo equipment. I never saw this. Really? It was always fully loaded, but oh well kept messing and You can't LOL kept messing with me to buy because of paint jobs up in the cruise. Look the same as clean the drama on the Lakes Fitzgerald was being followed by the Arthur M. Anderson US steel boat at Captain Cooper was the skipper. And from what I understand Cooper brought into the wind twice to go back and end and look for possible survivors from the Fitzgerald. He pretty well knew what it happened. He lost visual contact. He lost radar contact any lost radio contact. It was very heroic thing to do when you consider wind gust 90 miles an hour to bring his ship into the wind to try and try and help find the survivors more things have happened other than but the following morning and but the butt Cooper One thing one reason I believe the Fitzgerald may have hit a reef. is the fact that the the Fitzgerald have never been Lincoln's I mean contrary to several reports or reports and the ends Anderson on the other hand with a 647 vessel. and that vessel was lengthened. 2767 twisting and turning it by itself and certainly stands to reason that the cooper cooper realized what had happened and he went down and headed down. Wellmore listen in and Direction work any survivors of the Fitzgerald may have drifted so he can pick them up if you song. And he went down into Whitefish Bay par enough. I mean any further because they couldn't have drifted that far during the during the time. There's a lot of criticism of the Coast Guard's rescue operation. Could you elaborate on that? Their contention was a course that at that time Lee of the the Coast Guard tub Naugatuck, which is a protein modification repairs because they were preparing it for the so-called winter navigation season. and In the first place. It was criticism. Maybe the Naugatuck should have been able to go up there and then search well, I don't care if I couldn't go on out and meet a search on that in the first place. It's about normal operation normal run is about a three-hour trip from here to Whitefish Point. and well baby use another exit 160 miles west north of the Sioux when he was in something off in the Sioux and it would take a go at 10. 10 miles an hour. I got to take him 6 hours. They had a boat still 15 miles out there still an hour and a half to run out there and try to find them after they do it, but nothing could have went down without sounding on the alarm. She must have plenty of fast because there was no SOS given. And then reported it should concern nobody would know if there was something wrong. Drowning is supposed to be a rather easy death. But I have never been convinced of that. I hope it is but I I continue even a year later as this is to think of those final moments in the pitch of night pitch Darkness. In violence, he's and the sudden is I'm I have so often hoped. That those men because of the violent storm may have been knocked against the steel or they're the metal of a corner of a ship or whatever and knocked out before they even had a chance to realize what was happening. And as I say to think of them going through those few minutes because it must have happened very suddenly. I hope and pray to God that they did not suffer. Any length of time the frustration of accepting a death that by All rights should have never happened is what Father James Southard of Toledo is talking about father Southard was the adopted brother of Eugene O'Brien a crewman aboard the Edmund Fitzgerald Barbara go walkie of public station. Wgte FM in Toledo, Ohio talk with Father Southard about the ship and its crew. When did you find out that the Fitzgerald had sunk? I was in our rectory kitchen here at quarter of 7 in the morning. Before just before getting ready to go over for Mass. I turned on the radio heard the news and then our phone rang. And it was a relative by marriage by a previous marriage who called me and asked me if I had heard the terrible news. And I was so stunned by this announcement over the radio. And then this call from James wife that neither one of us could hardly speak over the telephone. So it's done. We were by this horrible revelation. Did the company call her or did she find out on the radio to telephone and call me immediately? The company didn't inform anybody. I'm sure the company I responded as quickly as they could but you have to remember there were 29 men involved and I know that the company I did get in touch with her. I believe sometime that same day but after all there were 29 to be called so that would take some doing. I was ordained during World War II. And one of my jobs as a newly ordained priest was just horrendous and that involve me with a military officer accompanying me going to the homes of families where I had to assist in delivering a governmental telegram where the United States government regretted to inform you that your son Johnny or David or joke. Has been killed in action. And I died a little bit every time I had that job to do. So I suspect keeping that in mind with that background of experience. I can understand the hesitancy of the Colombia line officials to call each family involved of the 29 men who were lost to tell them of the tragedy until such time as they could have a clearly definitive picture that absolutely no man survived in other words at an early hour on the next morning it before it was really definitive that all were lost it is it it just remotely possible that some to 3/4 half-a-dozen men might have made it. On Flotsam or whatever to the nearest beach and until they could ascertain that. I could understand why a company would not make 29 or while. We were many phone calls. It would be it would be involved to families to report that the Fitzgerald had gone down. And the two that time they did not know whether there were any survivors will immediately have family would pick up on that end in almost a state of Hysteria and with just dozens of questions. Will this that the other thing what happened what will and the company would have to Simply respond? We don't know we don't know we don't know yet. So that perhaps keeping some of that in mind. The company would be a little reluctant to call as early as the next morning after the tragedy. Now that's not to say that they could not have done so but I can see where there would be when you call with such terrible news is it says I can place myself with these telegrams that I had to assist in delivering the families. Can you tell me a little bit about what he said about the Biggest sailor on that ship particularly as I understand it a favorite of at least two or three captains with the Colombia line. and Captain McSorley Where is a very good friend to Gene? He Gene had a great deal of admiration for the captain. He liked sailing with him and he like to Fitzgerald never on any occasion. Do I recall? I'm saying anything at all of which would suggest that they Fitzgerald was in anyway unsafe or that it was in need of any kind of repair. In fact, he thought it was a fine vessel and I never heard him say anything that would suggest otherwise, they liked the Fitzgerald what made that ships so special. I I don't really know that it was the ship. That was a special. I know that he very me. He had a great fondness for Captain McSorley got along with him very well. I do know this he was promoted to wheelsman from work the previously he had done on the Fitzgerald with McSorley. That was probably a greater 2 below the position of Wheels man, and he was not too Keen about that job as wheelsman sure. It was one of more dignity and what not. But Gene was the kind of a boy that like to get right into the dirt and and work with the fellas, you know, and we'll be one of them but in the free in the pilothouse he could be kind of his job was kind of a dressed-up job and he really liked it shovel and cleaning and get right into whatever with the rest of the boys, but He still alone. He was very loyal to his job. And and I had on occasion I'd say when I look this is a little better job. You don't have to work quite some Hardwell easy as he understood that but he still even like decking and this was just kind of a fancy job to him and all address of job, which he was joking about it, but he did a good job. Is there any possibility that he was at the wheel the night that she went down conditions of such duress the captain himself is right there now, it's possible that Gene was operating or or guiding the bishop. But in such a severe storm, I am sure that if he was the captain was right at his side giving him every direction because in times of in Stormy Weather times of duress, the captain is absolutely in total command and right on the spot as before. Yes, I had asked him about that and all the years that I knew him and he had been in in storms where they'd have to run for cover, but he never expressed any all he just said that's part of the deal. He never expressed the slightest fear of of his work on the lakes or his as a say working on on these boats. I never heard him express any fear at all. Cathedral Superior The real problem is they're concerned. They haven't they have a demonstrated capability of syncing in and three to five minutes ago doubt, they go down so fast and they don't have watertight bulkheads. There. They have no watertight Integrity. Once the hold is breech. They they they they just they just think they probably think immediately unlike ocean ships ocean ships have watertight bulkheads and they can flood up to 2/5 of the ship then deep sea ship has to has to have the capability of being able to literally sync two fists of the ship and still remain afloat. Melvin Pelfrey is the vice president of the marine engineers beneficial association in Toledo a group that represents many of the sailors on the Great Lakes. The union is always played a major role in ensuring the safety of the sailors on the lights Barber glowacki interviewed Pelfrey and Tim Green the Union's lawyer who also represents several of the families of the Fitzgerald crew both, California and green talk about the extra safety the need it on the Great Lakes money that cuts down on it cuts down on cargo carrying and if the efficiency of the ship Yeah, but it's a lot more expensive to lose a whole ship then to spread that caused out among other ships and then not lose a ship you with you would think so, but you know, we've been recommending watertight bulkheads for some years and right right now right now we are aware but we're building we're building around 10 chips brand new ships and no shift still do not have watertight bulkheads and the shipping industry is not going to put the watertight bulkheads in until such time as the rulemaking rulemaking or the Coast Guard says that they must put must put the watertight bulkheads. Did the bulkheads break open and the Fitzgerald was she taking on water report report that the ship was stricken? She went down about 15 miles from Whitefish. Another 15 miles. She would have been safe for example letter deep sea ship in the NRA to cook in a Hole by Alice turn off that ship that ship traveled halfway around the world with with a bow gone. If this would happen to a Great Lakes yet. The Great Lakes Shipping went down immediately. I've heard from some of the members of the families of the crew members on the Fitzgerald that the boat was loaded Beyond. Where she should have been particularly for winter stormy season? Is that true? Well true. She is load line has been deepened on her and that this ship from original load line is is is about 3 and 1/2 foot deeper in the water than she was originally designed for what has happened is a shipping companies that it is as went to the Coast Guard in the American Girl and his got permission to deepen the load line and listen to Freebird not on this ship. Would you do what you like with your lessons is the inheritance safety and stability of the ship. Did they discuss it here? They speculated about the effect of the cargo and the Psychic the Fitzgerald was very deeply loaded. With respect to the type of cargo they went into it and in great detail the term that they were using was the angle of repose of taconite. I'm not too sure what that means. But it means the what extends you can roll it without it shifting. I was left with the impression on the basis of all the information and I heard that it was unlikely that there was a sufficient amount of role in this particular case to cause a shift to the cargo. They also went into some great detail as to where when and how they vessel was loaded. There's no question that the vessel was loaded beyond the former bloodline and there's also no question that it was loaded slightly lower than the winter load line. Now being permitted. It was also clear that when it went through one of the locks they did check its load line and it was it seemed to be proper at that time and insofar as the Loading books itself were concerned and the the methods that were being used. It would appear that they're there from everything that I heard. It would appear that the loading and probably been done properly. It was obviously no way of telling because of people who did the loading and the books that were kept went down with the vessel. The one thing I did know it was it there is not a particularly scientific method of loading and unloading the men seem to have designed the the method of loading and unloading themselves for each vessel in that they would put him in a little book and they would pass this information on it certainly wasn't very scientific, but I was left with the impression on the fact that I got that the that at least insofar as a shifting of the load was concerned that that was not a factor on the other hand. The very fact that was overloaded may have been a factor. Who's responsible for saying? Okay, we've got enough in the hold. Let's quit. Leah ultimately the responsibility of the master but I did one of the mates in the vessel unusually as they say mate each time. I believe it's the first mate is in charge of loading the vessel as such and he has certain addition that uses a load certain the cargo holds first in order not to spring it and then they have him so lions and all sorts of lions at they look at outside the vessel to make sure that it is not loaded any greater than it should be. Am I correct in saying it that normally there would have been to Coast Guard ships posted fairly near where the Fitzgerald went down in that these two ships had been taken away from their post to go to dry dock. I think that it's clear that this vessel went down within 5 minutes with all hands aboard and it seems clear to me that if they were in the best shape possible. They never would have been able to get on the scene in time to save any of the man and the conditions were so rough that it would be very unlikely that they could have picked anybody ever even if they even if they were there a real concern should not be directed at the at the rescue missions that wouldn't have been helpful. In any event. I mean is a lot of things wrong with the Coast Guard and their rescue procedure just wouldn't work. none of the people that I've talked with said that the company called them to tell them that there was something wrong. They all found out by somebody hearing it on the radio or on television. now I know that for having sex in an automobile accident the police don't release names until the family has been notified and Evidently, there was no. Effort to notify the families of the crew before the information was made public and I think they I think they started think they started breaking the news stories news stories. I think they made it first appeared on television about 11:00 that night a problem with the problem was until the next until the next morning. We didn't know where they were going to be any survivors or not. We we we hope then we expected it would be survivors as it was dark when the ship went down and it was the thinking it was a thinking of the Union. I'm sure that thinking of the company that want that once it got daylight we would start picking up survivors. I propped the problem was next next morning and daylight when daylight came or extremely low ceiling. Waiting. For daylight to start picking up survivors and problem was as you know, there was no survivors 910 it was no survivors and I'm hoping Beyond hope that we we would get somebody please put self launching inflatable life-raft aboard the ship Which Wich under normal circumstances of the crew if the crew could have launched those and got into him. It would have protection against the the elements against the water on for unfortunately. I'm so fast. It is apparent that the crew didn't have time to abandon ship but we did finally they did find the three inflatable life raft float floating on Lake Superior. There just was no but what are you going to do for the future? You said you put inflatable life raft on the ships. Already, what else are you working toward? We're working towards getting survival suits for the board. The ship would have been for about five years. Now. We had a program which were trying to the Coast Guard in Industry to put survival suits with you or with your individual individual suits assigned a man that I can put on prior to getting in the water if they get if they get into Portugal in the water to survive the survival supervised flotation and enough warranted it that they can live until such time as if they're picked up. What actually happened to the Fitzgerald on the November night may never be known I'm a Marine Board of inquiry is currently in session in Washington to release its findings on what may have happened to the Fitzgerald shortly The Links of taking sailor since their Discovery in the 1600s. In fact in the 1679 the French explore the ship the Griffin box Green Bay heading for Lake Ontario. Never to reach her destination. Even agree that November is the most treacherous month on the Great Lakes November 11th, 1913 is a date of what have been referred to as the day of the big storm taking over 100 ships and 254 lives on all lakes. Two major shipwreck since then addition to the Fitzgerald were also in November November 18th 1958 in Northern Lake Michigan and loss of the Daniel J Morrell on November 29th 1966 on Lake Huron taking 28 for men with her. In the report expected from the Marine Board three possibilities may be cited. The Fitzgerald was lifted in the center section by 2 waves and split or the ship was lifted by two waves on bow and broke them in ships or the Fitzgerald may have run aground on a group of Shoals north of her eventual resting place suffering structural damage and ultimately caused her to take on too much water and break regardless of the board's findings. One thing is certain the Lakes continue to roll remember storms will continue to blow How are things to Barbara garwacki of public station? Wgte in Toledo fall production assistants and to United Press International audio in New York the United States Coast Guard the Army Corps of Engineers Aldi Sioux Saint Marie, Michigan news. This program was produced by wcmu FM Mount Pleasant, Michigan by Frank Seeley and Tom Hunt. 26000 * 9 the ship was coming back from Lake Superior in the freezer Department